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Who are the top 3-5 hitters and pitchers??

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Postby davidmarver » Wed May 25, 2005 2:13 am

beltrans_boy wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:Hitters:
1 - Pujols
2 - Vlad
3 - ARod
4 - Abreu
5 - Tejada

Pitchers:
1 - Pedro
2 - Prior
3 - Santana
4 - Beckett
5 - Halladay


No Clemens, no Peavy? :-?


Peavy was the only one I struggled with over Halladay. I'm not questioning Peavy's abilities, but I'd like to see him put up numbers over the course of an entire big league season before I put him up there with those 4. Clemens, in my humble opinion, is going to be outside the top 10 for the remainder of the season (especially with the injury he sustained today).


Um...did you not watch last year? ERA title? To have Halladay, an AL pitcher coming off an injury over a pitcher who won the ERA title at 22, playing in a pitcher-friendly park is a little too bold for me.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Wed May 25, 2005 2:18 am

davidmarver wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:Hitters:
1 - Pujols
2 - Vlad
3 - ARod
4 - Abreu
5 - Tejada

Pitchers:
1 - Pedro
2 - Prior
3 - Santana
4 - Beckett
5 - Halladay


No Clemens, no Peavy? :-?


Peavy was the only one I struggled with over Halladay. I'm not questioning Peavy's abilities, but I'd like to see him put up numbers over the course of an entire big league season before I put him up there with those 4. Clemens, in my humble opinion, is going to be outside the top 10 for the remainder of the season (especially with the injury he sustained today).


Um...did you not watch last year? ERA title? To have Halladay, an AL pitcher coming off an injury over a pitcher who won the ERA title at 22, playing in a pitcher-friendly park is a little too bold for me.


Like I said, there's no doubting his abilities, but I feel the ERA was a little deceiving...the WHIP was very average. He allowed a TON of baserunners to have an ERA under 3.00. And he did miss 5 starts last year. I'd just like to see if the ERA was a fluke or not before I put him in the top-5. If he can put up another season of sub-3.20 ERA baseball, I'll group him above Beckett and Halladay. I'd just like to see him prove it first.

That's all. Again, whether he does it this year or next year, Peavy's going to be a study. I just question whether or not he's actually reached that status yet.
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Postby davidmarver » Wed May 25, 2005 2:29 am

Your logic is backwards. Beckett should be the one who has to prove he can piece together a full season.

Peavy's ERA last year was 2.27. Right now it's 2.29. That's as consistent as a pitcher will get. And the WHIP isn't decieving when you look at the second half numbers and compare that to this year. Peavy's ERA is low compared to that WHIP because he has a good gb/fb ratio (for a power pitcher) and strikes out a lot of batters. This means a lot of dp's and runners stranded. It's just like how Pedro has an abnormally high ERA for his WHIP because he doesn't induce many gb's.
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Postby The Guru » Wed May 25, 2005 2:37 am

beltrans_boy wrote:
The Guru wrote:I don't think Halladay will be a top 5 pitcher this year because he has 3 of the top offenses in MLB in his division.

Baltimore
Boston
Yankees

Thoses offenses are just too good that his stats will not be that great.


He was pretty good 2 years ago. He was injured last year. I see no reason why he won't revert to his 2003 form. And as of right now, name somebody better that's not already on my list...

I think he will pitch close to his 2003 form, BUT the AL East wasn't stacked with 3 of the top offenses that year. Its not so much that he isn't a very good pitcher, its just that something has to give going against those offenses.

Another factor against Halladay is he pitches in a hitters park. And 2 of those top offenses he has to go against play in hitters parks. That is Baltimore and Boston.

So it adds up to factors outside of Halladay himself that will make him not a top 5 pitcher this year.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Wed May 25, 2005 2:48 am

davidmarver wrote:Your logic is backwards. Beckett should be the one who has to prove he can piece together a full season.


I'm not gonna lie. I've had an uncanny fascination with Beckett since the '03 WS. But with all due respect, Beckett has 2 seasons (49 GS) with an ERA under 4. Peavy has 1 (27 GS). All I'm saying is that I'd like to see Peavy get another season under his belt.

davidmarver wrote:Peavy's ERA last year was 2.27. Right now it's 2.29. That's as consistent as a pitcher will get. And the WHIP isn't decieving when you look at the second half numbers and compare that to this year. Peavy's ERA is low compared to that WHIP because he has a good gb/fb ratio (for a power pitcher) and strikes out a lot of batters. This means a lot of dp's and runners stranded. It's just like how Pedro has an abnormally high ERA for his WHIP because he doesn't induce many gb's.


Again, I'm not saying it's a fluke (necessarily). It's just suspiciously high for a pitcher with an ERA below 3.00. I'd like to see him maintain those ratios in 2005 before I label him as a top teir pitcher. That's all. Don't mistake my argument as a knock on Peavy. I love him, I'm just saying that I'd like to hold off before I put him in the top-5 just yet.

Just to throw this out here...

ERA+ for their career:
Halladay - 122
Beckett - 116
Peavy - 112

K/9 for their career:
Beckett - 9.22 K/9
Peavy - 8.22 K/9
Halladay - 6.48 K/9

K/BB for their career:
Beckett - 2.67 K/BB
Halladay - 2.50 K/BB
Peavy - 2.49 K/BB

HR/9 for their career:
Halladay - 0.80 HR/9
Peavy - 0.89 HR/9
Beckett - 1.11 HR/9

And yes, I realize that these stats aren't a perfect indication for future performance. I'm just saying that Peavy has a little ways to go before he can be mentioned with Halladay and Beckett. I'd just like him to prove it. That's all. I'm not hating on Peavy at all. He's the best young pitcher in baseball, IMO.
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Postby davidmarver » Wed May 25, 2005 2:57 am

Peavy's career numbers include the seasons where he was 20, 21 and 22 years old. In his third year, as a 22 year old, he won the ERA crown? No pitcher is going to come in and pitch lights out when they are 20. But to win the ERA crown at 22 is far more amazing than what Beckett has accomplished in fantasy baseball (he needs to win 10 before he makes the top 10). Peavy was better than Beckett last year and he is doing better this year as well. I don't know how Peavy can be behind Beckett unless there's an arbitrary reason that has nothing to do with baseball.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Wed May 25, 2005 2:59 am

davidmarver wrote:Peavy's career numbers include the seasons where he was 20, 21 and 22 years old. In his third year, as a 22 year old, he won the ERA crown? No pitcher is going to come in and pitch lights out when they are 20. But to win the ERA crown at 22 is far more amazing than what Beckett has accomplished in fantasy baseball (he needs to win 10 before he makes the top 10). Peavy was better than Beckett last year and he is doing better this year as well. I don't know how Peavy can be behind Beckett unless there's an arbitrary reason that has nothing to do with baseball.


There is an arbitrary reason. I told you. I want Peavy to prove himself through an entire major league season before I group him as a top-5 pitcher.
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Postby IVIisfits138 » Wed May 25, 2005 7:38 am

davidmarver wrote:No pitcher is going to come in and pitch lights out when they are 20. But to win the ERA crown at 22 is far more amazing than what Beckett has accomplished in fantasy baseball (he needs to win 10 before he makes the top 10).


Whats that guys name? Oh yeah Doc Gooden.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Wed May 25, 2005 2:35 pm

IVIisfits138 wrote:
davidmarver wrote:No pitcher is going to come in and pitch lights out when they are 20. But to win the ERA crown at 22 is far more amazing than what Beckett has accomplished in fantasy baseball (he needs to win 10 before he makes the top 10).


Whats that guys name? Oh yeah Doc Gooden.


What about that Fernando kid? He was pretty good as I recall...

;-7
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Re: Who are the top 3-5 hitters and pitchers??

Postby Yoda » Wed May 25, 2005 2:52 pm

whoson1st0 wrote:Maybe it isn't so, but it seems like this year there are a lot more early round disappointments than in the past. While some may be happy with their first round picks of Pujols or Santana, others are banging their head against the wall for grabbing Beltran or Helton. There are also those players, like every year, who seem to be playing way above their head.

So, taking into account a player's history, projections, current level of play, likelihood of improvement/decline, injuries or injury risk, etc - how would you rank the top 3-5 batters, SPs and RPs?

Assume a standard 5x5 mixed league, but you are welcome to make a list for your particular scoring system. (and remember, this is not necessarily who you projected top be the top in the spring nor who may currently be sitting there).


Current or at the end of the year? There is HUGE difference in who I think is the best hitter/pitcher right now and at the end of the season.
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