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Anybody watch Monday's ChiSox/BlueJays game? Re: Buehrle

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Anybody watch Monday's ChiSox/BlueJays game? Re: Buehrle

Postby Gmogd » Tue May 27, 2003 12:46 am

Was wondering if anyone actually watched the game that could give me a little info on how he pitched. In the end he put up decent whip and era numbers for the game, but I'm wondering about that...

All I could see was the Sportsline version of the game, and it seemed a case of every batter getting wood on the ball against him, but either grounding it to an infielder or popping it up to an outfielder. With a finesse pitcher like Buehrle, not being able to actually have watched the game, I have no way of knowing which of the following happened:

A) Buehrle pitched well enough that all the batters were off by
that ever important inch or two, causing them to connect but
connect poorly.
Conclusion: He might finally be starting to turn it around.

B) Buehrle was just a lucky bastard (well, as lucky as a pitcher can
be who recorded a loss because of 4 unearned runs)
Conclusion: He's still a friggin' bum so far.

Any info at all would be appreciated
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Postby sinicalypse » Tue May 27, 2003 12:52 am

he was pitching pretty well, then he somewhat imploded behind some terrible defense in a five run 6th. 6 runs, 2 earned. he's generally hexed the days. he either pitches like crap or catches no breaks. he's still striking out an alarmingly low number of hitters (2 BB, 1K today) so realistically, his stuff isn't really that great. now, i know it isn't all about strikeouts. inducing 27 ground ball outs is likely to be more economical than striking out 12 batters, but nevertheless, buehrle doesn't look like he's going to warrant a roster spot on most teams throughout the season. hell, i just dropped him for dontrell willis in one league (my starting pitching is so solid that buehrle isn't a fixture), so really, it's up on you. if you're having faith i nthe guy and think he can still end up with 12-13 wins, then go for it. he's likely a FA in your league or can be had for real cheap... but if you dig up my old long-winded post comparing him to glavine, you'll see that buehrle has been consistently worsening as a pitcher, and it doesnt look like he'll ever have a chance of winning 15 games again, unless he pulls out some aaron sele years where he's like 15-10 with a 4.36 era or something.

colon looks like hte guy you want off of hte white sox staff. from there, it's a better bet to find other young arms like randy wolf, brett myers, mark prior (duh), carlos zambrano, ted lilly, etc etc.
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Postby jdh » Tue May 27, 2003 12:54 am

I caught it tonight on Sportsnet. Buerhle actually did not look that bad at all. After allowing one run in the first inning, he cruised through innings 2-5, looking like his old self, inducing all kinds of ground ball outs and frustrating the offense in classic Maddux-ian style. The problem came in the 6th inning, when the Sox defense let him down big time with two errors and a couple more just botched fielding plays that should have been outs. If the defense had been even half-assed, he would have been out of that inning with no runs scored.

As it stood, only 2 of the 6 runs he allowed were earned, and he only allowed 5 hits and 2 walks in 6 innings to the most potent offense in baseball, which isn't that bad. The Sox bullpen then came in and let the Jays blow the game open.

I wouldn't be too discouraged about this performance. If he had pitched like that with for example the Cards defense behind him instead of the Sox terrible defense, he would have won it.
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Tue May 27, 2003 1:00 am

I watched the game. With adequate defense, Buehrle could easily have gotten a solid win. As is, he went 6 innings, gave up 5 hits, 2 walks, 2 earned runs. Not bad.

But the problem is that he only struck out 1 batter. That's terrible. And Toronto leads the AL in strikeouts.

Buehrle's never been a big strikeout guy, his career average is about 5 per 9 innings, but this year he's below 4 K/9 and his K/BB ratio is around 1.00 (30 strikeouts, 29 walks). He can't be successful with those peripheral numbers. I'd drop him.
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Postby jdh » Tue May 27, 2003 1:05 am

I wouldn't dump him just yet if you do have him. It looked like he had low strikeouts tonight because the Jays kept on jumping on everything early in the count and he never really got deep enough in counts to strike anybody out. The problem is that with the White Sox defense, a finesse pitcher is going to have some problems.

I'd hold him for now and play the matchups at first until he settles down. Remember that the division he's in means lots of starts against the Royals, Indians and Tigers , which will help pad his numbers.
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Postby Longshot » Tue May 27, 2003 2:23 am

I watched the game. I saw 2 things:

Buehrle looked like vintage Buehrle, as everyone else has said

Konerko looked like dump. 0-4 on the day with i think a pair of Ks and a pair of men left on base. He looked solid defensively, but those skills seem like the only ones he still has. I really hope his new pitching coach can help him out.
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Postby HOOTIE » Tue May 27, 2003 10:14 pm

[quote= he's still striking out an alarmingly low number of hitters (2 BB, 1K today) so realistically, his stuff isn't really that great. now, i know it isn't all about strikeouts. inducing 27 ground ball outs is likely to be more economical than striking out 12 batters, [/quote]

There are only 3 things a pitcher controls himself. Strikeouts, walks, and hrs. Once a ball is put into play, it really comes down to luck, (where the balls hit), and the ability of the defense. So striking out 12 is in effect way more economical then hoping for 27 groundouts. The league average in hit % is at 30%. Any variance of + or - 3, can effect era. Buehrles h% last year was 25%, meaning he got some lucky outs. With fewer strikeouts this year, hes relying on Wee Willie Keelers theory, hit em where they aint. Strike out pitchers are simply a better defense, taking out the luck. A guy who strikes out 10, only then relies on 17 outs as chance, compared to a guy who strikes out 1, relying on 26 luck outs. I dont like finesse pitchers as much for this very reason. Now add Marks huge run support last year, and his win total gets inflated. Hes probably not worth dumping, but hes risky.
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Postby Peja and Bibby » Wed May 28, 2003 1:10 am

this may be this most well thought out and intelligent thread i have ever read. thank you to all of those who posted.
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Postby Sticky Spice » Wed May 28, 2003 1:27 am

I'm surprised more people didn't see this game - it was on ESPN 2 for me.

Buehrle looked good. Most of the base hits he was giving up were also grounders that picked up speed on that nasty turf. Buehrle looked extremely comfortable up until that inning from hell. He was composed, working quickly and around the plate constantly. He was changing speeds and working inside and outside.

In fact I would say Buehrle was MUCH BETTER than the decent numbers even bear out. Let me hit the highlights of that horrible inning.

First batter was his only mistake. He left the pitch up and it was lined to center for a single. The next batter hit a tailor made double play ball RIGHT TO Graffanino at short. It couldn't have been more perfect and he completely boots it.

Let's skip ahead to the second error of the inning. It was somewhat well hit semi-line drive to left. Carlos Lee apparently lost it in the low ring of lights and it got behind him - all the way to the wall. That allowed two to score and kept the inning alive.

After walking the next batter, a ball was then grounded to shortstop. The grounder led Graffanino towards third so he just tossed it to Crede for the force at third. Crede was apparently smoking crack because after catching the ball he was unable to touch his foot to the bag. Yes, this means he wasn't already touching the bag. He poked his foot around and completely missed it. I'll remind you that at this point there are still NO OUTS and the bases are loaded.

I think a couple more singles occurred this inning but both were seeing-eye singles. All told Buehrle was forced to essentially earn 7 outs that inning.

What has yet to be discussed is Daryl Cousins was behind the plate and he was completely AWFUL. He wasn't giving Buehrle the outside corner NOR the inside corner. He wasn't giving the high strike but he was giving shoetop strikes. Unfortunately for Buehrle he wasn't doing business down there. In fact, there was one pitch that was perfectly over the middle of the plate - no movement - and he called it a ball. I'm amazed Buehrle was able to stay composed through this BS.
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Postby Gmogd » Wed May 28, 2003 1:50 am

Wow, this post has turned out fairly well, glad I asked... So incredibly much more information than trying to find little news blurbs posted on fantasy news sites.

I'm glad to hear he stayed composed during the problem inning, I've been of the opinion for a while now that he hasnt lost any skill, he's just been freaking out under bad circumstances (wishful thinking, maybe?) Between those $-signs he has to see going down the toilet with every bad start, his lack of run support, and the inability of the relievers to keep things together, I don't care who you are, you feel a bit of agitation at the very least. As I've said in other threads, I've just wanted to see the ChiSox put a few runs on the board before he sets foot on the mound and take some of the pressure off of him in the hopes it gives him the boost he needed to turn things around. So when he had a lead so many innings into the game and had been performing well, and next thing I know Sportsline tells me he has something like 6ER and a bunch of hits, I thought the kid was done for. Later when they corrected his numbers for the night (those bastards shouldn't scare me like that...), I was relieved but wondered what was up. Good to know its not time to give up hope yet. But I'd really like to see a few strikeouts soon.
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