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Postby nuggets » Thu May 12, 2005 6:58 pm

Pedantic wrote: Berkman has always been one of the best hitters in the NL.


:-? How many ( what are the cut offs) are the "best" class? He hasn't been around as long as say Edmonds. Kind of a grey area ya know?
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Postby Pedantic » Thu May 12, 2005 7:07 pm

nuggets wrote:
Pedantic wrote: Berkman has always been one of the best hitters in the NL.


:-? How many ( what are the cut offs) are the "best" class? He hasn't been around as long as say Edmonds. Kind of a grey area ya know?


Of course it's a gray area. I didn't mean it to be black and white, nor did I compare him to Jim Edmonds. He's had a number of great seasons and several as the best hitter on his team. I'd say that qualifies him for the purposely vague title of one of the best in the NL. But if you need a number, I put him as the fourth best in the NL.
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Postby nuggets » Thu May 12, 2005 7:10 pm

Pedantic wrote:
nuggets wrote:
Pedantic wrote: Berkman has always been one of the best hitters in the NL.


:-? How many ( what are the cut offs) are the "best" class? He hasn't been around as long as say Edmonds. Kind of a grey area ya know?


Of course it's a gray area. I didn't mean it to be black and white, nor did I compare him to Jim Edmonds. He's had a number of great seasons and several as the best hitter on his team. I'd say that qualifies him for the purposely vague title of one of the best in the NL. But if you need a number, I put him as the fourth best in the NL.


Wow, you rank him much higher that I would and I would argue that Bagwell has been the better hitter in years past and was responsible for Lance seeing a lot of nice pitches he would't have w/o him. Lance has only had three years to really cheer about, others many more...
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Postby nuggets » Thu May 12, 2005 7:15 pm

I have to but Bonds, Larry Walker(obviously he is tailing off now), Pujols, Helton and Abreu as "always" having been the best NL hitters and with zero exceptions. Then you have Edmonds, Thome, Beltran, Rolen and others you could argue being better than Berkman.
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Postby gws226 » Thu May 12, 2005 7:25 pm

Pedantic wrote:Selling...high? To me, this sounds like selling low. But each to their own. I just don't get the Preston Wilson comparison. Wilson is older. Berkman is younger. Wilson has a balky knee. Berkman tore his ACL playing, um, flag football. Berkman has always been one of the best hitters in the NL. Wilson needs the Coors effect to be a decent hitter. But, yeah, Preston Wilson syndrome. Better sell high. O:-) ;-7


It was actually just a quote from a recent article that I borrowed ;)

Here's the article to help understanding the sell high concept with Berkman..... since Berkman is just back from injury... well just read :)

SELL HIGH

Lance Berkman – Instinct would tell you that Berkman will get better as he shakes off the rust. And he very well may. However, people tend to underestimate the effects of injuries. Look how long it took for Preston Wilson and Corey Patterson to get back to peak performance. Oh yeah, Wilson is still not there. A slight drop in power puts Berkman in a class with Kevin Mench or Geoff Jenkins. Wait until his first good game and then move him while his value is still based on anticipation.


source: http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/co ... &column=66

I am not trading for him in any of my league, but did make a WW grab him in one league.... too tempting ;)
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Postby Yoda » Thu May 12, 2005 7:30 pm

Pedantic wrote:Selling...high? To me, this sounds like selling low. But each to their own. I just don't get the Preston Wilson comparison. Wilson is older. Berkman is younger. Wilson has a balky knee. Berkman tore his ACL playing, um, flag football. Berkman has always been one of the best hitters in the NL. Wilson needs the Coors effect to be a decent hitter. But, yeah, Preston Wilson syndrome. Better sell high. O:-) ;-7


Yeah Rotoworld is crap sometimes. Even at 80%, Berkman is twice the hitter P.Wilson or A.Boone ever will be.

I think he will come around. He won't hit .330, 30 HR but he will still be a lot better than most waiver fodders.

I would hold onto him unless someone wants him bad. Yeah sell high if you can.
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Postby gws226 » Thu May 12, 2005 7:50 pm

The point of the article was not to compare wilson and berkman swing for swing..... it was to illustrate that when a player returns from injury that doesn't neccasarily mean the player will automatically be 100% of what he was before.

Your probably right that Berkman @ 80% is still better then Wilson @ 100%...... but what does Berkman @ 80% really compare to??
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Postby Pedantic » Thu May 12, 2005 8:08 pm

nuggets wrote:I have to but Bonds, Larry Walker(obviously he is tailing off now), Pujols, Helton and Abreu as "always" having been the best NL hitters and with zero exceptions. Then you have Edmonds, Thome, Beltran, Rolen and others you could argue being better than Berkman.


Well, that's your opinion, and as such, you are entitled to hold it. That's why I purposely made my statement vague. I don't agree with Walker and Abreu being in your top tier, but I also don't agree with your classification that those five hitters are "the best" with "zero exceptions".

You're putting a limit on the definition of "best". Do you mean top five? Certainly would appear so. But "best" is a vague term, one that is open to a great deal of interpretation. And that's the way I intended for it to be when I first used the phrase "one of the best". I didn't even know I had Berkman that high when I said it. I simply meant that he is an excellent hitter, and one that is worthy of consideration with the league's elite, which, by the way, is another purposely vague term. I should add that three years is a lot more history than some of the game's hitters today have.

In summary, considering that Berkman has only recently returned from his injury, I think it would be reasonable to allow for an adjustment period. Did anyone really think that he was going to come bounding out of the gate, cranking out multi-hit game after multi-hit game? It would have been foolishly optimistic to think so.

If you sell "high" now, you'll likely be taking a loss on a player who has many, many productive seasons ahead of him, in my opinion. Yes, he is an injury risk, but how much of a future risk do you really see him as? It's not like his knee is breaking down because of wear and tear and old age like Randy Johnson or Barry Bonds. It was a single traumatic event to his knee, one that is not certain to be repeated in the future. An ACL reconstruction has a 95% success rate. I like those odds, personally.
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Postby Cleveland Steamers » Thu May 12, 2005 8:31 pm

Berkman is a possible top 5 NL outfielder in my mind. Yes, an ACL injury is something that is recoverable...the risk is still there. Top 5 NL OFs would have to be Bonds, Abreu, Beltran, M.Cabrera, and a fight for 5th. Berkman is a player i just traded because I was able to get excellent value in the trade I made. By no means was I going to get rid of him for less than comprable value. He should have a good year but I wouldnt be surprised to see a very slow start toward full recovery. I mean can you say that I pulled an easy trigger when I traded Berkman,Oswalt,Sweeney,Rusch for Pujols,S.Green,Pavano, and Hermanson? I feel like I sold Berkman for his actual value, maybe more than his value and by no means was I shopping him to whoever would take him.
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Postby brandnew » Thu May 12, 2005 8:43 pm

Berkman's OPS is sick... I'd put the top hitters in the NL like this- Bonds, Pujols, Abreu, Berkman, Helton (Maybe Edmonds in this list)
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