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Postby matmat » Mon May 09, 2005 4:46 pm

Conner wrote:
Chavez: 29 homers, .396 OBP, .501 SLG%, .898 OPS

Tejada: 34 homers, .358 OBP, ,534 SLG%, .893 OPS


FWIW, tejada had about 700 plate appearances and Chavez 575..
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Postby rmeesig » Mon May 09, 2005 4:48 pm

Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:As far as Tejada/Chavez debate goes... Tejada plays a much tougher position. Even though he is average defensively, his bat makes up for it in double, triple.


The hitting isn't nearly that different...Last year:

Chavez: 29 homers, .396 OBP, .501 SLG%, .898 OPS

Tejada: 34 homers, .358 OBP, ,534 SLG%, .893 OPS


OPS+:

Tejada

2000 - 112
2001 - 112
2002 - 122
2003 - 117
2004 - 126


Chavez

2000 - 118
2001 - 131
2002 - 122
2003 - 132
2004 - 132
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Postby Conner » Mon May 09, 2005 4:51 pm

rmeesig wrote:
Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:As far as Tejada/Chavez debate goes... Tejada plays a much tougher position. Even though he is average defensively, his bat makes up for it in double, triple.


The hitting isn't nearly that different...Last year:

Chavez: 29 homers, .396 OBP, .501 SLG%, .898 OPS

Tejada: 34 homers, .358 OBP, ,534 SLG%, .893 OPS


OPS+:

Tejada

2000 - 112
2001 - 112
2002 - 122
2003 - 117
2004 - 126


Chavez

2000 - 118
2001 - 131
2002 - 122
2003 - 132
2004 - 132


Even better. I was going to post the OPS+, but I wanted to show Chavez' pretty big advantage in OBP, but fairly small disadvantage in slugging.
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Postby Yoda » Mon May 09, 2005 4:52 pm

Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:As far as Tejada/Chavez debate goes... Tejada plays a much tougher position. Even though he is average defensively, his bat makes up for it in double, triple.


The hitting isn't nearly that different...Last year:

Chavez: 29 homers, .396 OBP, .501 SLG%, .898 OPS

Tejada: 34 homers, .358 OBP, ,534 SLG%, .893 OPS


OK you are missing the point here. Look at the replacement value for Tejada. He is THE best hitting SS hands down in baseball. Plus he is not a liability on D.

If we are just comparing numbers regardless of position, it's much closer but that isn't reality. You have to look at what position each plays in order to figure out their VORP.
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Postby Conner » Mon May 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Yoda wrote:
Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:As far as Tejada/Chavez debate goes... Tejada plays a much tougher position. Even though he is average defensively, his bat makes up for it in double, triple.


The hitting isn't nearly that different...Last year:

Chavez: 29 homers, .396 OBP, .501 SLG%, .898 OPS

Tejada: 34 homers, .358 OBP, ,534 SLG%, .893 OPS


OK you are missing the point here. Look at the replacement value for Tejada. He is THE best hitting SS hands down in baseball. Plus he is not a liability on D.

If we are just comparing numbers regardless of position, it's much closer but that isn't reality. You have to look at what position each plays in order to figure out their VORP.


I'm not missing the point. You said that Tejada's bat makes up for the differencee in defense "double, tripple". It, in fact, can be argued that Chavez is a better hitter than Tejada....and a much better fielder.

The difference in positions isn't that great. Pujols is still great, eventhough he plays firstbase....the fact that Chavez plays his position better than Tejada plays his is just another advantage, not a disadvantage.

If Chavez were a bad thirdbaseman, then you might have a valid point....but he's not.
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Postby looptid » Mon May 09, 2005 4:59 pm

VORP:

Tejada
2000 - 55.7
2001 - 45.3
2002 - 66.4
2003 - 58.1
2004 - 73.0
Total - 298.5

Chavez
2000 - 41.3
2001 - 50.4
2002 - 51.4
2003 - 61.6
2004 - 45.5
Total - 250.2

Keep in mind though that when Tejada left after 2003, the difference was only 20.8, not 48.3. And that VORP is not a rate statistic, but sort of a counting statistic that will favor Tejada as he has played more games than Chavez over that stretch.
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Postby Yoda » Mon May 09, 2005 5:09 pm

Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:As far as Tejada/Chavez debate goes... Tejada plays a much tougher position. Even though he is average defensively, his bat makes up for it in double, triple.


The hitting isn't nearly that different...Last year:

Chavez: 29 homers, .396 OBP, .501 SLG%, .898 OPS

Tejada: 34 homers, .358 OBP, ,534 SLG%, .893 OPS


OK you are missing the point here. Look at the replacement value for Tejada. He is THE best hitting SS hands down in baseball. Plus he is not a liability on D.

If we are just comparing numbers regardless of position, it's much closer but that isn't reality. You have to look at what position each plays in order to figure out their VORP.


I'm not missing the point. You said that Tejada's bat makes up for the differencee in defense "double, tripple". It, in fact, can be argued that Chavez is a better hitter than Tejada....and a much better fielder.

The difference in positions isn't that great. Pujols is still great, eventhough he plays firstbase....the fact that Chavez plays his position better than Tejada plays his is just another advantage, not a disadvantage.

If Chavez were a bad thirdbaseman, then you might have a valid point....but he's not.


OK. Would you take the best offensive SS who plays pretty good defense or a top 5 or 6 offensive 3B who plays very good defense?

Everything being equal, I'd take the SS with a bat. That is my point.
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Postby Conner » Mon May 09, 2005 5:10 pm

looptid wrote:VORP:

Tejada
2000 - 55.7
2001 - 45.3
2002 - 66.4
2003 - 58.1
2004 - 73.0
Total - 298.5

Chavez
2000 - 41.3
2001 - 50.4
2002 - 51.4
2003 - 61.6
2004 - 45.5
Total - 250.2

Keep in mind though that when Tejada left after 2003, the difference was only 20.8, not 48.3. And that VORP is not a rate statistic, but sort of a counting statistic that will favor Tejada as he has played more games than Chavez over that stretch.


VORP also accounts for position...but not each player's actual defense, if I'm not mistaken.

The fact that Chavez is a great thirdbaseman, and Tejada is an average shortstop don't matter in VORP...just that Tejada plays short and Chavez third.

And, coming into this season, the PECOTA projections had Tejada at a 50 VORP, and Chavez at 48. They're really not that different, unless, of course you consider that Chavez is a much better fielder at his position.
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Postby rmeesig » Mon May 09, 2005 5:12 pm

Yoda wrote:OK. Would you take the best offensive SS who plays pretty good defense or a top 5 or 6 offensive 3B who plays very good defense?

Everything being equal, I'd take the SS with a bat. That is my point.


That's a fair question for Fantasy baseball, but in real baseball which would you rather have:

Tejada/Teahan

or

Chavez/Crosby

That was the question Beane was faced with a couple years ago.
If a man dwells on the past, then he robs the present.
But if a man ignores the past, he may rob the future.
The seeds of our destiny are nurtured by the roots of our past.
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Postby Conner » Mon May 09, 2005 5:13 pm

Yoda wrote:
Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Conner wrote:
Yoda wrote:As far as Tejada/Chavez debate goes... Tejada plays a much tougher position. Even though he is average defensively, his bat makes up for it in double, triple.


The hitting isn't nearly that different...Last year:

Chavez: 29 homers, .396 OBP, .501 SLG%, .898 OPS

Tejada: 34 homers, .358 OBP, ,534 SLG%, .893 OPS


OK you are missing the point here. Look at the replacement value for Tejada. He is THE best hitting SS hands down in baseball. Plus he is not a liability on D.

If we are just comparing numbers regardless of position, it's much closer but that isn't reality. You have to look at what position each plays in order to figure out their VORP.


I'm not missing the point. You said that Tejada's bat makes up for the differencee in defense "double, tripple". It, in fact, can be argued that Chavez is a better hitter than Tejada....and a much better fielder.

The difference in positions isn't that great. Pujols is still great, eventhough he plays firstbase....the fact that Chavez plays his position better than Tejada plays his is just another advantage, not a disadvantage.

If Chavez were a bad thirdbaseman, then you might have a valid point....but he's not.


OK. Would you take the best offensive SS who plays pretty good defense or a top 5 or 6 offensive 3B who plays very good defense?

Everything being equal, I'd take the SS with a bat. That is my point.


And my point was that they're really not that different, and that, if anything is giving Tejada an advantage, it's not because his bat makes up for any disadvantages "double, triple".
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