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Oh, clutch this

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Postby josebach » Sat May 07, 2005 11:29 am

This topic has been debated time and time again.

Until a "clutch" situation can be outlined and documented, everyone arguing their position is really only arguing semantics. One must define clutch before they can label someone as clutch.
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Postby .38 Special » Sat May 07, 2005 11:40 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
.38 Special wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
Pacman wrote:Clutch is a false concept. If a player had the ability to get a key hit when the team REALLY needed it, why wouldn't he get a hit EVERY time and bat 1.000?

No such thing as clutch.


Yes there is. There are clutch moments. Players can come through with a clutch hit.

There are no clutch players over a long period of time, though.


That is a poor statement. Some people love having their backs against the wall, others cannot handle pressure. I very much believe someone can be a clutch hitter based off their personality type, or can be a very poor player in the clutch for the very same reason. Athletes are more then just who is in the best shape, or who can swing the bat the fastest. I could argue that the mental make up of a player has more to do with performance then does the being physically gifted.


Show me an example of a clutch player, then.


Non Clutch...... Jose Contreras....excellent stuff.....as soon as base runners get on, and pressure is on, folds like a deck of cards 9 times out of 10

Clutch....Mariano Rivera......will come in and shut down the game........ 9 times out of Ten.

Do you honestly think a players attitude has no major affect on his performance both short term and long term? What about all these closers and want to be closers......You have power pitchers that are closers, you have finesse pitchers that are closers....but what do you always hear about closers if they don't make it...."They don't have the right attitude/makeup to be a closer." Now I know I am talking about pitching...but with batters can you honestly say that there are not players who press at the plate when the game is on the line, and that there are not players who can sit back and wait for the pitch even though the game is on the line? What about batters who get down on the count so they shorten their swing to slap the ball into a gap.

Noone will be perfect in every clutch situation, no one is perfect in every nonclutch situation. If you have a guy, that in 10 times in the same situation, 9th inning down by a run or two, and 7 times get's it done....to me that is clutch. Compared to the batter who blows it 7 out of ten times.

Try taking some pschology and sociology courses....will do you some good.
Last edited by .38 Special on Sat May 07, 2005 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby .38 Special » Sat May 07, 2005 11:55 am

From Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: clutch
Function: adjective
1 : made or done in a crucial situation <a clutch hit>
2 : successful in a crucial situation <a clutch pitcher>
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Postby josebach » Sat May 07, 2005 11:59 am

.38 Special wrote:From Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: clutch
Function: adjective
1 : made or done in a crucial situation <a clutch hit>
2 : successful in a crucial situation <a clutch pitcher>


Now you must define "crucial situation".
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Postby .38 Special » Sat May 07, 2005 12:05 pm

josebach wrote:
.38 Special wrote:From Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: clutch
Function: adjective
1 : made or done in a crucial situation <a clutch hit>
2 : successful in a crucial situation <a clutch pitcher>


Now you must define "crucial situation".


Again Webster Dictionary:

Crucial:marked by final determination of a doubtful issue <the crucial game of a series.

To me for a hitter...it is that player representing the game tieing or winning run in the 9th inning. That to me is the ultimate "clutch" situation for a batter.
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Postby Amazinz » Sat May 07, 2005 12:22 pm

Tavish, thanks for posting the author's comments. After reading them I have little faith that this study is successful or even that the author knows what he's talking about. First I think this guy's audacity is incredible. How do you allow a story to be published claiming you have proven that clutch hitters exists and yet your study isn't available to the public?

That brings me to the point of "proven":

My study doesn't say that they are the "greatest clutch hitters" they just happen to be some of the ones that I have the most evidence that they posess SOME clutch-hitting ability.


Sure doesn't sound like the confident statement of someone who had just proven something. If you have defined and proven clutch hitting than showing us the best and worst of all time should be the easy part. No?

Actually, what you said about Gomez hits on something important. Being a clutch hitter doesn't require being good in important situations (at least according to the way I looked at it), it requires that you exhibit a pattern of doing better as the situation gets more important. So if Barry Bonds was a choke hitter you might still want him up in that key spot, because even performing somewhat worse than usual still makes him preferable to anyone else on the Giants.


What? This is pseudo-intellectual garbage. :-D

As far as who was the worst clutch hitter (I call them choke hitters) the number of choke hitters who appeared are about the number we would expect to see by chance if there were indeed no true clutch or choke hitters in MLB. So out of the ones who appeared choke, most of them probably were not.


Well if this is the case wouldn't this lead us to believe that clutch hitters do in fact not exist? I hate to burst this guy's bubble but you can't prove that clutch hitters exist without proving that "non-clutch hitters" exist also.
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Postby .38 Special » Sat May 07, 2005 12:38 pm

Amazinz wrote:Tavish, thanks for posting the author's comments. After reading them I have little faith that this study is successful or even that the author knows what he's talking about. First I think this guy's audacity is incredible. How do you allow a story to be published claiming you have proven that clutch hitters exists and yet your study isn't available to the public?

That brings me to the point of "proven":

My study doesn't say that they are the "greatest clutch hitters" they just happen to be some of the ones that I have the most evidence that they posess SOME clutch-hitting ability.


Sure doesn't sound like the confident statement of someone who had just proven something. If you have defined and proven clutch hitting than showing us the best and worst of all time should be the easy part. No?

Actually, what you said about Gomez hits on something important. Being a clutch hitter doesn't require being good in important situations (at least according to the way I looked at it), it requires that you exhibit a pattern of doing better as the situation gets more important. So if Barry Bonds was a choke hitter you might still want him up in that key spot, because even performing somewhat worse than usual still makes him preferable to anyone else on the Giants.


What? This is pseudo-intellectual garbage. :-D

As far as who was the worst clutch hitter (I call them choke hitters) the number of choke hitters who appeared are about the number we would expect to see by chance if there were indeed no true clutch or choke hitters in MLB. So out of the ones who appeared choke, most of them probably were not.


Well if this is the case wouldn't this lead us to believe that clutch hitters do in fact not exist? I hate to burst this guy's bubble but you can't prove that clutch hitters exist without proving that "non-clutch hitters" exist also.


I think there is such a thing as clutch players, but I was disappointed that this article made claims with no data, or hint to the extent of research. Too much fluff in this article, not enough substance. Someone from the National Enquirer could have written this article with it's lack of depth. That being said, thank you for the post, it is a very interesting topic, and had opened some healthy debate.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat May 07, 2005 1:42 pm

Mariano Rivera blew 4 postseason saves, all in crucial situations, most noteworthy game 5 of the 1997 ALDS against the Indians, and game 7 of the 2001 World Series.

Sure, he came through in alot of situations too, but those are all clutch situations that he didn't come through in. Game 7 of the World Series the most crucial game he's ever had to pitch in.

And he blew that.

Now, I'm not as familiar on the pitching studies as I am on hitting, so my argument is mostly directed at hitters. Alot of people who get credit for being clutch hitters, really are not.
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Postby billsfootball02 » Sat May 07, 2005 3:06 pm

Link to the Sons of Sam Horn discussion of Bill James and clutch hitting

http://p086.ezboard.com/fsonsofsamhornb ... 5308.topic
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