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Brazoban's future ...?

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Postby Yoda » Mon May 02, 2005 7:36 pm

davidmarver wrote:
Yoda wrote:No I got plenty in the tank. Just dont' have time to waste my breath.


Good thing you type on this board, not speak.


Grow up? Who started name calling?

Have you really resorted to a who started it mentality?

And by the way, responding to my other posts would be nice Yoda. Don't respond to this one, the others will do.


Thanks for posting. You are doing awesome. ;-D
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Postby Yoda » Mon May 02, 2005 7:37 pm

klvrdude wrote:I starting reading this thread about Brazoban's future then my head just started to hurt from all this school yard antics. I think you (the person who started the thread) and I should just trade him so we don't have to read this anymore.

:~( :~( :~(


No kidding. I would hang onto Brazoban. I personally don't believe Gagne will be all that healthy in 05. Seems like the injuries are piling up and when he starts throwing in high pressure situations, things won't get much better.
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Postby citti34 » Mon May 02, 2005 7:58 pm

Wow, c'mon Men. No player in the MLB can get better (athletically) or injured because they are on roids if this happens. People need to let players get caught, time will tell. The Government will break the MLB union to solve this problem.
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Postby warrick95 » Mon May 02, 2005 8:42 pm

First of all, I thought it was supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. The incessant and rampant finger-pointing that goes on nowadays in society is incredible. Not just here at the Cafe, but everywhere on a whole. An example is our current court system. Let's say a buddy of yours reads in the paper that so and so was charged with rape. More than likely, your buddy will say "that dude raped a girl" instead of the complete facts. The world has completely shifted into guilty until proven innocent.

Transplanted into the steroid thing, many people are just throwing out accusations for any reason really, as long as it resembles some sort of symptom due to steroid use.

That's illogical. Let's say that I feel fatigued. Fatigue is a symptom of depression. Does that mean that I definitely have depression? Of course not. Fatigue can be a side-effect of many other things, including lack of sleep, a virus, or even cancer. Similarily, the symptoms of steroid use are symptoms of other things, as well.

I am a cynical and naturally skeptical person in all facets of life. I am negative, a realist, and question people and things. However, I feel that it is wrong to throw out names of potential steroid users based on hasty and lacking support.

To refute that the guy just looks ugly...jesus christ. This isn't a modeling agency. Look around you. There are plenty of ugly dudes. Gagne looks tough, but not necessarily ugly, actually. More people are just plain ugly than ugly because they use roids. Look at my above discussion.

Many ex-starting pitchers become great relievers for two reasons. 1. Lack of a third or even fourth pitch. Relievers can hold up with two pitches because they don't pitch as often. They won't face a hitter twice in a given night and thus the hitters can't learn how to hit them. Obviously, this is not the case with Gagne. 2. Lack of durability. K-Rod is another player that went from starter to reliever due to this. Some players just can't hold up as starters due to the immense workload in on day, then time off, compared to gradual pitching every day. Check out Damaso Marte. ERAs of 4.49, 4.13, and 5.27 in A, A, and AA respectively between 1997 and 1999. Look at where he is now. It's not uncommon for starters to turn into superb relievers.

The funny part is, y'all are slapping the roid tag on Gagne, yet you missed the most obvious and logical explanation of him using steroids if he even used them at all in the past: to expedite his recovery from Tommy John surgery. He had a serious operation and as known, steroids can help speed up recovery. That's probably the best possible explanation for steroids and the best link that y'all can perhaps tie him to them, but even that is on very shaky grounds.

Y'all are reading into too much conspiracy if y'all think they put him on the DL to hide the roids. :-t

I find it funny that the MLB is trying to look like the good guys here by profusely investigating roids and charging pitchers. The fans dig the long ball and the MLB wants to protect the sluggers as much as possible.
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Postby Yoda » Mon May 02, 2005 9:19 pm

warrick95 wrote:First of all, I thought it was supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. The incessant and rampant finger-pointing that goes on nowadays in society is incredible. Not just here at the Cafe, but everywhere on a whole. An example is our current court system. Let's say a buddy of yours reads in the paper that so and so was charged with rape. More than likely, your buddy will say "that dude raped a girl" instead of the complete facts. The world has completely shifted into guilty until proven innocent.

Transplanted into the steroid thing, many people are just throwing out accusations for any reason really, as long as it resembles some sort of symptom due to steroid use.

That's illogical. Let's say that I feel fatigued. Fatigue is a symptom of depression. Does that mean that I definitely have depression? Of course not. Fatigue can be a side-effect of many other things, including lack of sleep, a virus, or even cancer. Similarily, the symptoms of steroid use are symptoms of other things, as well.

I am a cynical and naturally skeptical person in all facets of life. I am negative, a realist, and question people and things. However, I feel that it is wrong to throw out names of potential steroid users based on hasty and lacking support.

To refute that the guy just looks ugly...jesus christ. This isn't a modeling agency. Look around you. There are plenty of ugly dudes. Gagne looks tough, but not necessarily ugly, actually. More people are just plain ugly than ugly because they use roids. Look at my above discussion.

Many ex-starting pitchers become great relievers for two reasons. 1. Lack of a third or even fourth pitch. Relievers can hold up with two pitches because they don't pitch as often. They won't face a hitter twice in a given night and thus the hitters can't learn how to hit them. Obviously, this is not the case with Gagne. 2. Lack of durability. K-Rod is another player that went from starter to reliever due to this. Some players just can't hold up as starters due to the immense workload in on day, then time off, compared to gradual pitching every day. Check out Damaso Marte. ERAs of 4.49, 4.13, and 5.27 in A, A, and AA respectively between 1997 and 1999. Look at where he is now. It's not uncommon for starters to turn into superb relievers.

The funny part is, y'all are slapping the roid tag on Gagne, yet you missed the most obvious and logical explanation of him using steroids if he even used them at all in the past: to expedite his recovery from Tommy John surgery. He had a serious operation and as known, steroids can help speed up recovery. That's probably the best possible explanation for steroids and the best link that y'all can perhaps tie him to them, but even that is on very shaky grounds.

Y'all are reading into too much conspiracy if y'all think they put him on the DL to hide the roids. :-t

I find it funny that the MLB is trying to look like the good guys here by profusely investigating roids and charging pitchers. The fans dig the long ball and the MLB wants to protect the sluggers as much as possible.


It's no use. Some people will never learn.
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Postby Phatferd » Mon May 02, 2005 10:03 pm

warrick95 wrote:First of all, I thought it was supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. The incessant and rampant finger-pointing that goes on nowadays in society is incredible. Not just here at the Cafe, but everywhere on a whole. An example is our current court system. Let's say a buddy of yours reads in the paper that so and so was charged with rape. More than likely, your buddy will say "that dude raped a girl" instead of the complete facts. The world has completely shifted into guilty until proven innocent.

Transplanted into the steroid thing, many people are just throwing out accusations for any reason really, as long as it resembles some sort of symptom due to steroid use.

That's illogical. Let's say that I feel fatigued. Fatigue is a symptom of depression. Does that mean that I definitely have depression? Of course not. Fatigue can be a side-effect of many other things, including lack of sleep, a virus, or even cancer. Similarily, the symptoms of steroid use are symptoms of other things, as well.

I am a cynical and naturally skeptical person in all facets of life. I am negative, a realist, and question people and things. However, I feel that it is wrong to throw out names of potential steroid users based on hasty and lacking support.

To refute that the guy just looks ugly...jesus christ. This isn't a modeling agency. Look around you. There are plenty of ugly dudes. Gagne looks tough, but not necessarily ugly, actually. More people are just plain ugly than ugly because they use roids. Look at my above discussion.

Many ex-starting pitchers become great relievers for two reasons. 1. Lack of a third or even fourth pitch. Relievers can hold up with two pitches because they don't pitch as often. They won't face a hitter twice in a given night and thus the hitters can't learn how to hit them. Obviously, this is not the case with Gagne. 2. Lack of durability. K-Rod is another player that went from starter to reliever due to this. Some players just can't hold up as starters due to the immense workload in on day, then time off, compared to gradual pitching every day. Check out Damaso Marte. ERAs of 4.49, 4.13, and 5.27 in A, A, and AA respectively between 1997 and 1999. Look at where he is now. It's not uncommon for starters to turn into superb relievers.

The funny part is, y'all are slapping the roid tag on Gagne, yet you missed the most obvious and logical explanation of him using steroids if he even used them at all in the past: to expedite his recovery from Tommy John surgery. He had a serious operation and as known, steroids can help speed up recovery. That's probably the best possible explanation for steroids and the best link that y'all can perhaps tie him to them, but even that is on very shaky grounds.

Y'all are reading into too much conspiracy if y'all think they put him on the DL to hide the roids. :-t

I find it funny that the MLB is trying to look like the good guys here by profusely investigating roids and charging pitchers. The fans dig the long ball and the MLB wants to protect the sluggers as much as possible.


Though your point is valid there are flaws. I am not saying you are wrong, but you have to look at both sides and the whole point of this entire debacle was that Yoda threw SlowPitch's argument out the window because he felt he knew more.

The flaws in your argument are that even though you may be tired doesn't make you depressed. Yes that is true, but if you were always fatigued and had family members who suffer from depression, that it is fair to assume you may be depressed. MLB is a place full of steroid abuse and thats known. Its fair to raise a bit of skepticism when you see players who have the "characteristics" of a roid user. Is it right? Probably not, but its not fair to just say "well if we don't have hard evidence its not true."

If you go into Rehab center and see people with marks on their arms is it fair to assume they are from needles where they shoot up? It wouldn't be according to your point that we shouldn't assume. It's fair to assume they are from doing drugs. If that person was sitting next to you at school, maybe it wouldn't be fair. However, MLB is known to have a steroid problem and therefore, it is fair to assume things. It doesn't make it right, but its fair.
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Postby Yoda » Mon May 02, 2005 10:43 pm

Phatferd wrote:
warrick95 wrote:First of all, I thought it was supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. The incessant and rampant finger-pointing that goes on nowadays in society is incredible. Not just here at the Cafe, but everywhere on a whole. An example is our current court system. Let's say a buddy of yours reads in the paper that so and so was charged with rape. More than likely, your buddy will say "that dude raped a girl" instead of the complete facts. The world has completely shifted into guilty until proven innocent.

Transplanted into the steroid thing, many people are just throwing out accusations for any reason really, as long as it resembles some sort of symptom due to steroid use.

That's illogical. Let's say that I feel fatigued. Fatigue is a symptom of depression. Does that mean that I definitely have depression? Of course not. Fatigue can be a side-effect of many other things, including lack of sleep, a virus, or even cancer. Similarily, the symptoms of steroid use are symptoms of other things, as well.

I am a cynical and naturally skeptical person in all facets of life. I am negative, a realist, and question people and things. However, I feel that it is wrong to throw out names of potential steroid users based on hasty and lacking support.

To refute that the guy just looks ugly...jesus christ. This isn't a modeling agency. Look around you. There are plenty of ugly dudes. Gagne looks tough, but not necessarily ugly, actually. More people are just plain ugly than ugly because they use roids. Look at my above discussion.

Many ex-starting pitchers become great relievers for two reasons. 1. Lack of a third or even fourth pitch. Relievers can hold up with two pitches because they don't pitch as often. They won't face a hitter twice in a given night and thus the hitters can't learn how to hit them. Obviously, this is not the case with Gagne. 2. Lack of durability. K-Rod is another player that went from starter to reliever due to this. Some players just can't hold up as starters due to the immense workload in on day, then time off, compared to gradual pitching every day. Check out Damaso Marte. ERAs of 4.49, 4.13, and 5.27 in A, A, and AA respectively between 1997 and 1999. Look at where he is now. It's not uncommon for starters to turn into superb relievers.

The funny part is, y'all are slapping the roid tag on Gagne, yet you missed the most obvious and logical explanation of him using steroids if he even used them at all in the past: to expedite his recovery from Tommy John surgery. He had a serious operation and as known, steroids can help speed up recovery. That's probably the best possible explanation for steroids and the best link that y'all can perhaps tie him to them, but even that is on very shaky grounds.

Y'all are reading into too much conspiracy if y'all think they put him on the DL to hide the roids. :-t

I find it funny that the MLB is trying to look like the good guys here by profusely investigating roids and charging pitchers. The fans dig the long ball and the MLB wants to protect the sluggers as much as possible.


Though your point is valid there are flaws. I am not saying you are wrong, but you have to look at both sides and the whole point of this entire debacle was that Yoda threw SlowPitch's argument out the window because he felt he knew more.

The flaws in your argument are that even though you may be tired doesn't make you depressed. Yes that is true, but if you were always fatigued and had family members who suffer from depression, that it is fair to assume you may be depressed. MLB is a place full of steroid abuse and thats known. Its fair to raise a bit of skepticism when you see players who have the "characteristics" of a roid user. Is it right? Probably not, but its not fair to just say "well if we don't have hard evidence its not true."

If you go into Rehab center and see people with marks on their arms is it fair to assume they are from needles where they shoot up? It wouldn't be according to your point that we shouldn't assume. It's fair to assume they are from doing drugs. If that person was sitting next to you at school, maybe it wouldn't be fair. However, MLB is known to have a steroid problem and therefore, it is fair to assume things. It doesn't make it right, but its fair.


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Postby Madison » Mon May 02, 2005 11:54 pm

Guys, let's drop all the personal insults. It doesn't accomplish anything but get threads locked and posters in trouble.

The Gagne discussion is valid since if in fact Gagne did/does steroids, that can have a huge impact on Brazoban's value. Personally, I have no idea if he took steroids or not, and neither do any of us. Is it possible? Yes. Is it possible he's clean and never touched the stuff? Yes. That's really all any of us know for certain. The rest is all speculation and really nothing any different than the hundreds of Bonds/steroids threads.

Discuss the merits for either side of the topic, but drop the personal attacks and childish insults.
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Postby KolbSaves » Mon May 02, 2005 11:56 pm

I think there's a little more evidence available in the Bonds discussion, Mad.
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Postby Madison » Tue May 03, 2005 12:13 am

KolbSaves wrote:I think there's a little more evidence available in the Bonds discussion, Mad.


True. ;-)

Just the basic argument so far is the same way Barry's started. Performance and looks.

I'm not taking any sides. I have no idea if he's clean or dirty. My opinion is that he's clean, but I have nothing to add to the debate. Just a personal feeling, and I could be wrong.

Mostly I just wanted to let everyone know to cool their jets, quit the fighting, and discuss the topic (if they were going to discuss it any further).
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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