SouthBronxBombers wrote:I did not contradict myself, because the Braves are not using the moneyball approach. Brian Jordan and Raul Mondesi do not fit the moneyball mold. That they have a limited payroll does not mean they are following moneyball, that is just ridiculous, which is essentially what you are claiming.
Okay, then explain to me why this ISN'T the Moneyball approach. You are missing the point that you don't HAVE to do everything Billy Beane suggested in the book to be taking a "Moneyball" approach. The point of Moneyball, which I tried to explain though you missed it (let it be noted that Billy Beane has also tried to explain this,) is to limit wasting money. The point is not: "Spend money on OBP and college pitchers." If that is all you took from it, you are either reading the cliffnotes version of it, or regurgitating the opinions of someone that has read the cliffnotes version.
so, the whole book said ...
"don't waste money" ...? ? ?
Brilliant.
THANK YOU MR BEANE.
All teams try not to waste money obviously (except maybe the Yankees). Moneyball, or sabermetrics shows you HOW not to waste money, and where to spend it to maximize the return on it. And don't make an opinion on people who believe in sabermetrics from people who are koolaid drinking Beane fans. I don't form an opinion on old-schoolers based solely on Morgan/Yanks04, so it goes both ways.
"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"
"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
quicksilver8 wrote:Moneyball is not a specific script for how to win...rather it is a philosophy and approach toward running a team. If you don't think that the Braves have used the philosophy of buying low and selling high and utilizing undervalued players, well...you haven't been paying much attention the last 15 years.
Obviously Boston combined a Yankee spending approach with some moneyball philosphy and won. I would agree that the salary had more to do with their win than their moneyball 'players' if you want to call them that.
Exactly!!! Moneyball is about looking for undervalued skills. Last season JD Drew was undervalued and the Brave got an All-Star season out of him. Then he became expensive and the Braves said "See ya!". The Dodgers will rue the day they gave Drew $55 million dollars...
wrveres wrote:Ok, Just so I understand the new definition of the "Moneyball Approch" ....
"Buy Low and Sell Hi" "Don't Waste Money" "Have the best team they can within their budget" "Be a Good team".
I am soooooooo glad that Mr Beane came up with all of those. Damn that man must be a genius.
THANK YOU MR BEANE.
You are twisting everything that has been said on here, but I'm not going to waste time explaining it. Keep on hating. Or go play catch with Barry or semething, he needs something to do.
"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"
"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
Most of you have probably never read this book. ALL media coverage of it has been so biased (both for and against), that you will NEVER have a true idea of the actual moneyball concept unless you read it yourself.
I can't believe someone said "what has it won? nothing". I guess a LOT of games is nothing, eh? Oakland is trailing only NY for average wins/season in recent years. Yeah, they aren't the Yankees or BoSox or Marlins... but big deal. You're telling me this system is a failure because they "only" win 90-95 regular season games on a yearly basis, then lose in the first round of the playoffs? Teams like KC have the same payroll as Oakland.... go ask them if Oakland is winning "nothing".
Joe Morgan is a moron. Plain and simple. A great baseball player, but a moron. He was doing a game earlier this year, talking about playing "smart ball" (small ball). They bunted over someone to third, then flied him in. He praised them for five minutes. The next batter got a single... and he never said anything about that run having scored anyway. He's bitter about being in the book, and he's never going to admit even the most obviously correct points as valid.
Lets not take this into a "who uses moneyball, what is moneyball, is moneyball better than traditonal methods" thread. There have been enough of those, and very few people have the understanding to really add value to them.
Help please:
http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1086524#1086524
the whole point of the A's was that OBP was a commodity that was singularly undervalued based on how useful it was in producing a successful product.
now that markets have adjusted to value OBP more efficiently, the A's are looking for OTHER undervalued commodities, as they don't have the overall resources of the Yankees and Red Sox to get everything they'd like.
notice the increase of focus on defensive players, and the noticable lack of effective indicators. this indicates that defense is signifigantly undervalued, and hence cheap and effective.
Ok, Just so I understand the new definition of the "Moneyball Approch" ....
"Buy Low and Sell Hi" "Don't Waste Money" "Have the best team they can within their budget" "Be a Good team".
I am soooooooo glad that Mr Beane came up with all of those. Damn that man must be a genius
Pretty simple in concept, its to bad most of the league is in financial turmoil, havent sniffed the playoffs in over a decade, have dead contracts, and over priced injured players near the brink of retirement.
Most of you have probably never read this book. ALL media coverage of it has been so biased (both for and against), that you will NEVER have a true idea of the actual moneyball concept unless you read it yourself.
I can't believe someone said "what has it won? nothing". I guess a LOT of games is nothing, eh? Oakland is trailing only NY for average wins/season in recent years. Yeah, they aren't the Yankees or BoSox or Marlins... but big deal. You're telling me this system is a failure because they "only" win 90-95 regular season games on a yearly basis, then lose in the first round of the playoffs? Teams like KC have the same payroll as Oakland.... go ask them if Oakland is winning "nothing".
Joe Morgan is a moron. Plain and simple. A great baseball player, but a moron. He was doing a game earlier this year, talking about playing "smart ball" (small ball). They bunted over someone to third, then flied him in. He praised them for five minutes. The next batter got a single... and he never said anything about that run having scored anyway. He's bitter about being in the book, and he's never going to admit even the most obviously correct points as valid.
Lets not take this into a "who uses moneyball, what is moneyball, is moneyball better than traditonal methods" thread. There have been enough of those, and very few people have the understanding to really add value to them.
That argument is sort of flawed. Its not like they knew the next guy would hit a single. You try to score when you can. If your not confident in some guys crappy hitting, might as well try to advance the runner on a bunt, cuz the bum is probably going to get out anyways. But you obviously don't do that with good players.
fantasyfiend wrote:Pretty simple in concept, its to bad most of the league is in financial turmoil, havent sniffed the playoffs in over a decade, have dead contracts, and over priced injured players near the brink of retirement.
Or don't have a good enough "old school" scouting department. They drafted a very large part of the value that created the recent run of the A's. The A's have thrived off of the talent gathered by the scouts gathered before Beane overhauled the system.
The Big 3 and Harden, Giambi, Tejada, Chavez, Crosby, and Byrnes all came before the overhaul.
Beane should get plenty of credit for the deals he has made in the past, but like every GM there many choices he has made that really don't look all that great right now.
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by LBJackal » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:08 pm 
