Joe Morgan strikes again - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Joe Morgan strikes again

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby LBJackal » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:08 pm

wrveres wrote:
jimmyrad wrote:
SouthBronxBombers wrote:I did not contradict myself, because the Braves are not using the moneyball approach. Brian Jordan and Raul Mondesi do not fit the moneyball mold. That they have a limited payroll does not mean they are following moneyball, that is just ridiculous, which is essentially what you are claiming.

Okay, then explain to me why this ISN'T the Moneyball approach. You are missing the point that you don't HAVE to do everything Billy Beane suggested in the book to be taking a "Moneyball" approach. The point of Moneyball, which I tried to explain though you missed it (let it be noted that Billy Beane has also tried to explain this,) is to limit wasting money. The point is not: "Spend money on OBP and college pitchers." If that is all you took from it, you are either reading the cliffnotes version of it, or regurgitating the opinions of someone that has read the cliffnotes version.


so, the whole book said ...

"don't waste money" ...? ? ?

Brilliant. ;-D

THANK YOU MR BEANE.


All teams try not to waste money obviously (except maybe the Yankees). Moneyball, or sabermetrics shows you HOW not to waste money, and where to spend it to maximize the return on it. And don't make an opinion on people who believe in sabermetrics from people who are koolaid drinking Beane fans. I don't form an opinion on old-schoolers based solely on Morgan/Yanks04, so it goes both ways.
Image

"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"

"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
LBJackal
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 9196
Joined: 1 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Hotel Yorba

Postby wrveres » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:09 pm

Ok, Just so I understand the new definition of the "Moneyball Approch" ....


"Buy Low and Sell Hi"
"Don't Waste Money"
"Have the best team they can within their budget"
"Be a Good team".



I am soooooooo glad that Mr Beane came up with all of those. Damn that man must be a genius.

THANK YOU MR BEANE. ;-D
25                "Love the Padres"
Rafael

Dodgers FAIL|Mets FAIL|Canada FAIL
wrveres
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe Musketeer
Posts: 31755
(Past Year: 746)
Joined: 2 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby LCBOY » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:16 pm

quicksilver8 wrote:Moneyball is not a specific script for how to win...rather it is a philosophy and approach toward running a team. If you don't think that the Braves have used the philosophy of buying low and selling high and utilizing undervalued players, well...you haven't been paying much attention the last 15 years.

Obviously Boston combined a Yankee spending approach with some moneyball philosphy and won. I would agree that the salary had more to do with their win than their moneyball 'players' if you want to call them that.


Exactly!!! Moneyball is about looking for undervalued skills. Last season JD Drew was undervalued and the Brave got an All-Star season out of him. Then he became expensive and the Braves said "See ya!". The Dodgers will rue the day they gave Drew $55 million dollars... :-t
LCBOY
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2838
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: On third base trying to steal home.

Postby LCBOY » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:17 pm

wrveres wrote:Ok, Just so I understand the new definition of the "Moneyball Approch" ....


"Buy Low and Sell Hi"
"Don't Waste Money"
"Have the best team they can within their budget"
"Be a Good team".



I am soooooooo glad that Mr Beane came up with all of those. Damn that man must be a genius.

THANK YOU MR BEANE. ;-D

Pure genius, huh? :-D
LCBOY
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2838
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: On third base trying to steal home.

Postby LBJackal » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:19 pm

wrveres wrote:Ok, Just so I understand the new definition of the "Moneyball Approch" ....


"Buy Low and Sell Hi"
"Don't Waste Money"
"Have the best team they can within their budget"
"Be a Good team".



I am soooooooo glad that Mr Beane came up with all of those. Damn that man must be a genius.

THANK YOU MR BEANE. ;-D


You are twisting everything that has been said on here, but I'm not going to waste time explaining it. Keep on hating. Or go play catch with Barry or semething, he needs something to do.
Image

"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"

"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
LBJackal
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 9196
Joined: 1 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Hotel Yorba

Postby ocmusicjunkie » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:41 pm

Everyone... stop.

Most of you have probably never read this book. ALL media coverage of it has been so biased (both for and against), that you will NEVER have a true idea of the actual moneyball concept unless you read it yourself.

I can't believe someone said "what has it won? nothing". I guess a LOT of games is nothing, eh? Oakland is trailing only NY for average wins/season in recent years. Yeah, they aren't the Yankees or BoSox or Marlins... but big deal. You're telling me this system is a failure because they "only" win 90-95 regular season games on a yearly basis, then lose in the first round of the playoffs? Teams like KC have the same payroll as Oakland.... go ask them if Oakland is winning "nothing".

Joe Morgan is a moron. Plain and simple. A great baseball player, but a moron. He was doing a game earlier this year, talking about playing "smart ball" (small ball). They bunted over someone to third, then flied him in. He praised them for five minutes. The next batter got a single... and he never said anything about that run having scored anyway. He's bitter about being in the book, and he's never going to admit even the most obviously correct points as valid.

Lets not take this into a "who uses moneyball, what is moneyball, is moneyball better than traditonal methods" thread. There have been enough of those, and very few people have the understanding to really add value to them.
Help please:
http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1086524#1086524


Harden- 2.15 ERA, 7.61 K/9
Peavy - 2.89 ERA, 10.10 K/9

[b]Lets go Rich![/b]
ocmusicjunkie
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 828
Joined: 6 Jul 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby fantasyfiend » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:02 pm

the whole point of the A's was that OBP was a commodity that was singularly undervalued based on how useful it was in producing a successful product.

now that markets have adjusted to value OBP more efficiently, the A's are looking for OTHER undervalued commodities, as they don't have the overall resources of the Yankees and Red Sox to get everything they'd like.

notice the increase of focus on defensive players, and the noticable lack of effective indicators. this indicates that defense is signifigantly undervalued, and hence cheap and effective.


Ok, Just so I understand the new definition of the "Moneyball Approch" ....


"Buy Low and Sell Hi"
"Don't Waste Money"
"Have the best team they can within their budget"
"Be a Good team".


I am soooooooo glad that Mr Beane came up with all of those. Damn that man must be a genius


Pretty simple in concept, its to bad most of the league is in financial turmoil, havent sniffed the playoffs in over a decade, have dead contracts, and over priced injured players near the brink of retirement.
fantasyfiend
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 666
(Past Year: 12)
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby DK » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:09 pm

wrveres wrote:and maybe that is the A's problem.

Every team I know has a goal in the beginning of the season to "Win the World Series", except the A's. Their goal is to "Be a Good team".

Someone should tell the Beaneiacs, its time to "raise the bar" ;-)


Hm...

The Padres have won an average of 74 games over the last 5 seasons. The A's have won 97.

Who needs to "raise the bar"? :-?
Image
DK
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle Eye
Posts: 9533
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: on deck

Postby CubsFan7724 » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:55 pm

ocmusicjunkie wrote:Everyone... stop.

Most of you have probably never read this book. ALL media coverage of it has been so biased (both for and against), that you will NEVER have a true idea of the actual moneyball concept unless you read it yourself.

I can't believe someone said "what has it won? nothing". I guess a LOT of games is nothing, eh? Oakland is trailing only NY for average wins/season in recent years. Yeah, they aren't the Yankees or BoSox or Marlins... but big deal. You're telling me this system is a failure because they "only" win 90-95 regular season games on a yearly basis, then lose in the first round of the playoffs? Teams like KC have the same payroll as Oakland.... go ask them if Oakland is winning "nothing".

Joe Morgan is a moron. Plain and simple. A great baseball player, but a moron. He was doing a game earlier this year, talking about playing "smart ball" (small ball). They bunted over someone to third, then flied him in. He praised them for five minutes. The next batter got a single... and he never said anything about that run having scored anyway. He's bitter about being in the book, and he's never going to admit even the most obviously correct points as valid.

Lets not take this into a "who uses moneyball, what is moneyball, is moneyball better than traditonal methods" thread. There have been enough of those, and very few people have the understanding to really add value to them.

That argument is sort of flawed. Its not like they knew the next guy would hit a single. You try to score when you can. If your not confident in some guys crappy hitting, might as well try to advance the runner on a bunt, cuz the bum is probably going to get out anyways. But you obviously don't do that with good players.
Image
CubsFan7724
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 6426
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: AKA 34=Sweetness on FFC

Postby Tavish » Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:08 am

fantasyfiend wrote:Pretty simple in concept, its to bad most of the league is in financial turmoil, havent sniffed the playoffs in over a decade, have dead contracts, and over priced injured players near the brink of retirement.


Or don't have a good enough "old school" scouting department. They drafted a very large part of the value that created the recent run of the A's. The A's have thrived off of the talent gathered by the scouts gathered before Beane overhauled the system.

The Big 3 and Harden, Giambi, Tejada, Chavez, Crosby, and Byrnes all came before the overhaul.

Beane should get plenty of credit for the deals he has made in the past, but like every GM there many choices he has made that really don't look all that great right now.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11067
(Past Year: 34)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: buiviopaufamp and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Tuesday, Jul. 29
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

LA Angels at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Seattle at Cleveland
(7:05 pm)
Chi White Sox at Detroit
(7:08 pm)
Milwaukee at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Philadelphia at NY Mets
(7:10 pm)
Washington at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Arizona at Cincinnati
(7:10 pm)
Toronto at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Colorado at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
NY Yankees at Texas
(8:05 pm)
Oakland at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Minnesota at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Atlanta at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)
St. Louis at San Diego
(10:10 pm)
Pittsburgh at San Francisco
(10:15 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact