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Postby Pokey » Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:00 pm

DominicanLou wrote:
chadxor wrote:it's not only about winning, it's about staying competitive in a big money market with a small market team.


Well, the Marlins, who are a small market team, have won the World Series two times in the last eight years. Seems slightly more succesful than what any Moneyball team has done.


While winning it all is the ultimate goal, It can be argued that the regular season is a better representation for how well your team is put together. The postseason is such a small sample size that the best team doesn't always win. The A's have put out alot of teams that were definately good enough to win the series, but just had some rotten luck.
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Postby Airzoom32 » Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:18 pm

Actually, I read the book to mean that the MONEYBALL theory has more to do with buying low and selling high. In a recent ESPN article, Billy Beane said that now that everyone has realized that OPS was severely underrated and under paid for, it has become more expensive. He said that now everyone is focusing on OPS, he is now looking to more underrated statistics, such as defensive fielding range, to get undervalued players for a better price. By doing this, Beane is able to keep the A's competitive while working with a much lower payroll, because in essence he is getting more for his money by focusing on underrated players for a given statistic. So while Morgan might be right that OPS based teams are never going to win it all (cause the Red Sox didn't actually win the world series last year...I am pretty sure it was all faked :-D ), but I think he is missing the point of MONEYBALL.
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:59 pm

Moneyball works great when you have the payroll to go out and get a Schilling, a Manny, a Cabrerra, a Foulke, a Pedro et al. The Red Sox did not win with the moneyball concept, they won by buying studs. Moneyball has won nothing. The Twins have been just as good as the A's, the Braves have been a lot better, the Twins are in the same payroll range and the Braves limit their payroll as well. The A's caught lightning in a bottle with the three aces on the mound, and it got them what? A first round exit in the playoffs, no reall draw at the park and pretty much nothing. Moneyball is a theory, which has proven out nothing.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:35 pm

The biggest 'moneyball' event of the season last year had to be the Bosox unloading local hero (sic?) Nomar, for better or for worse amidst all sorts of shady rumors about off season soccer trysting and petulant tantrums on the bench vs. the Yankees.

They got some decent if nondescript guys, who fit in as 'fielders' and won the series. And then let them hawk their 'world series mojo' on the market. I don't think that you can say Epstien has much to do w/ Manny, who is untradeable, or Pedro other than digging in his heels at 4 years and being as polite as possible about it.
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:41 pm

And when you have non-moneyball guys being the only reason you won the WS, it is really absurd to state that moneyball is why you won it. Moneyball had nothing to do with the Red Sox winning it.
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Postby quietstorm » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:48 pm

Maybe if we'd stop talking about "Moneyball" and talk about strictly sabermetrics, things would have a different light cast on them. Sabermetric strategies do work.

However, the Red Sox can't be cited as an example for either side of the argument. They're the only organization to really use both sabermetrics and traditional scouting.
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Postby xeifrank » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:17 pm

Even Billy Beane admits that his style of team building strives to win as many regular season games as possible, and that the playoffs are pretty much a crapshoot or luck as it's a very small sample size (at most 7 games in one series). Considering what the A's have done the past couple of years, and the money they've spent doing it, I'd say his system has been very successful.

And I love how the DePodesta bashers are starting to cook their crow.

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Postby cmchampa2 » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:17 pm

Regardless of how anyone feels about Moneyball or any of that, the first post might be referring to how dumb a statement like "Theories don't win games, players win games" is.

Theories don't even play games. Contracts don't play games. Books don't, not even Moneyball and especially not Canseco's book. Of course players win and lose the games... they're the physical objects IN the games. This statement falls into that category of statements that are dumb just because they're so obvious.
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Postby xeifrank » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:18 pm

cmchampa2 wrote:Regardless of how anyone feels about Moneyball or any of that, the first post might be referring to how dumb a statement like "Theories don't win games, players win games" is.

Theories don't even play games. Contracts don't play games. Books don't, not even Moneyball and especially not Canseco's book. Of course players win and lose the games... they're the physical objects IN the games. This statement falls into that category of statements that are dumb just because they're so obvious.


Hey, quit trying to confuse us all with logic and reasoning. We will have none of that here in the Cafe today! :)

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Postby LBJackal » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:21 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:A. Please do not call Morgan the poster boy of the anti-moneyball crowd or anything to that ilk. Morgan is a moron and we on that side of the "Alan Embree is a great closer option/Scott Hatteberg a great hitter" fence will take exception to it.


You and Alan Embree. What is it about that fascination? Pick one tiny insignificant part about sabermetrics that wasn't even condoned by any more people than maybe one person in Boston's front office. Brilliant. Just brilliant. Yes, that's an accurate depiction of sabermetrics buddy - even though it's not a sabermetric theory. Get real. You should be glad that you aren't the poster boy for anti-sabermetrics either, because you make a very weak argument against it.

Nobody said Scott Hatteberg is the next Babe Ruth. He was a dirt cheap player who posted a .360 OBA over the 3 years he's been with the team. Sure, they could have been like the Yankees and signed Travis Lee to be a paper weight for $3M but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it?
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