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Oakland A's - Why is everybody so high on them?

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Postby Phatferd » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:38 am

RynMan wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Its not the same sample, so you can't use it. Its a fact.


What the hell are you talking about?


To quote yourself

Whoever wins the most games during the season (all things being equal - which they're not due to stronger divisions) is the best team.


You said it yourself, its not equal based on division strengths. I can take it a step further and say all the teams in the AL West played different NL East teams last and and you play the Giants while we play the Dodgers, so its not the sample pool.

That's what the hell I am talking about.
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Postby Phatferd » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:42 am

LBJackal wrote:Oakland made it to the playoffs 4 years in a row with a shitty payroll. I don't care how they had so few fans, I'm not their fan anyway, the point is they were very good with very little money. The point is they have the best record other than the Yankees the past 5 years. Jesus Christ, if you're gonna argue something, dont say they aren't a good team. How hard is it to realize that. This isn't about beane, or whatevbr the f$^*&^$ you want it to be about. They were better than any team over the past 5 years other than the $200M friggin Yankees. If you want to say they weren't good enough, that's bullshit and you know it. I'm not wasting more time talking about this, I can't believe it even got to this point. And I'm not even an A's fan, I'm a Jays fan and have said how it was luck that we won the series twice in a row. And that was with only 2 rounds in the palyoffs... yeah the A's suck because they could ONLY make it to game 5 against the Yankees who have 2 players making the same amountof money as their entire team... it's bullshit and you know it.


You may want to put an ice pack on your head, from overheating. Yikes!!

The A's are not the best team outside the Yanks of the last 5 years. Bos, Fla, Ana, AZ and the Yanks were all better than them the last 5 years. So were the Twins. You know your claim is bullsh*t.

If you want to go all the way back to the begining of this thread then according to your claim the A's being the 2nd best (I am assuming based on wins since they are 2nd) then Bartolo Colon is the second best pitcher over the last 5 years, and therefore better than anyone on the A's staff. He has won the 2nd most games in that time.

Where have I ever said the A's suck? I haven't and you know it. Your claim is bullsh*t and you know it! My very first post on here was a positive post about the A's and I even mentioned how Huston Street is gonna be awesome and said Harden will be better than anyone by the end of his career, so don't tell me I said the A's suck.

Also, no wonder you defend the A's since your boy Riccardi is at the helm.
Last edited by Phatferd on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RynMan » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:44 am

Phatferd wrote:
RynMan wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Its not the same sample, so you can't use it. Its a fact.


What the hell are you talking about?


To quote yourself

Whoever wins the most games during the season (all things being equal - which they're not due to stronger divisions) is the best team.


You said it yourself, its not equal based on division strengths. I can take it a step further and say all the teams in the AL West played different NL East teams last and and you play the Giants while we play the Dodgers, so its not the sample pool.

That's what the hell I am talking about.


What I am saying is that 162 games is a hell of alot better of a sample than 5 games of a playoff. Its not perfect (which is something that we can say we agree upon), but basing it on a 5 game series is crazy.

Sample A: The Houston Astros last year. In a 7 game series they would have been exposed. 5 Games they survived because they could have both Roger and even Oswalt come around and made available for second outings.

Eh, if you want you can have the last say and i doubt I will reply, i dont have the energy anymore. :-)
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:46 am

OK the if you want to say Colon is the second best pitcher, good luck with that. Because SP's are the same as entire teams right? And 30 games is the same sample size as 162 games, right? And ERA means nothing in respect to SP's right? And the run supporet they get is irrelevent to hwo good they are. Suuuuuure buddy. Yeah.... you sure know what you're talking about....
Last edited by LBJackal on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DGroundhog » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:47 am

I'm hoping he just shuts the hell up. :-D

How people can be such annoying tards over the internet amazes me.
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Postby Phatferd » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:56 am

LBJackal wrote:OK the if you want to say Colon is the second best pitcher, good luck with that. Because SP's are the same as entire teams right? And 30 games is the same sample size as 162 games, right? And ERA means nothing in respect to SP's right? And the run supporet they get is irrelevent to hwo good they are. Suuuuuure buddy. Yeah.... you sure know what you're talking about....


More so than you obviously.

Let me ask you something. Do you like contradicting yourself?

If the A's are the second best team based on record, then isn't a pitcher with the 2nd most wins the same?

You can't have your cake and eat it too...

Sample sizes this and that, baseball is a game not a math competition. Humans play it out and the better ones win.

Maybe the A's have the best record year after year because the AL West is weaker? It seems like there are only 2 teams that are good at a time in teh AL West. When they face better competition it shows.

The A's will get a big reality check this year. They caught lightning in a bottle with the Big 3 and will see how everything was a mirage. Why is it that the Blue Jays have gone downhill since Riccardi came in? Are his philosophies not working?

Where did I say the A's suck? I didn't so you may want to pull yourself together before you overheat and make irrational statements. If putting words into people's mouth is the only way you know how to make an argument then you may want to take a critical thinking class while your at college, it could serve you well.

For making a positive comment about the A's as my first post in here, I get this crap. I have said time and time that believer of theories should defend their beliefs, which I have no problem with. I believe in good old scouting and I am defending my stance. It was a civil discussion until LBJ acted like Nixon.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:06 am

Phatferd wrote:
LBJackal wrote:OK the if you want to say Colon is the second best pitcher, good luck with that. Because SP's are the same as entire teams right? And 30 games is the same sample size as 162 games, right? And ERA means nothing in respect to SP's right? And the run supporet they get is irrelevent to hwo good they are. Suuuuuure buddy. Yeah.... you sure know what you're talking about....


More so than you obviously.

Let me ask you something. Do you like contradicting yourself?

If the A's are the second best team based on record, then isn't a pitcher with the 2nd most wins the same?

You can't have your cake and eat it too...


Don't give me this BS that if wins are what matters for teams than wins are what matters for SP's. If you think that's a contradiction you have a lot of thinking to do my friend...

Wins for SP's rely on their run support, their bullpen, how long they stay in ballgames, etc. Wins for teams are all encompassing. The entire team, synergically, affect the outcome of a game, and over the span of 5 seasons that's a huge sample size. You have a lot to learn if you think SP's win totals reflect their skill as much as a team's win totals reflect theirs.
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Postby Phatferd » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:14 am

Fair enough, but why didn't you answer my question abotu putting words into my mouth?

BTW, Bartolo winning the 2nd most games over 5 years is 5 years not 30 starts so that averages to 150 starts. Not a bad sample size is it?

Another thing for a team to win a game it is ultimately the same thing as a pitcher. It is run differential. Colon has a + run differential in that time.

I am done, I love you all, it's great that we have a place to argue this, don't want anything to be personal.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:51 am

Phatferd wrote:Fair enough, but why didn't you answer my question abotu putting words into my mouth?

BTW, Bartolo winning the 2nd most games over 5 years is 5 years not 30 starts so that averages to 150 starts. Not a bad sample size is it?


No, it's not such a small sample size, but it's not his doing. SP wins have to do with many other things like I already mentioned. Also Colon is only 6th in AL wins over the past 5 seasons, not 2nd. Hudson, Mulder, and Zito all have at least as many wins in the AL as Colon has had over the past 5 years. Not that it means anything, just pointing it out.

As for putting words in your mouth... what did I claim you said that you actually didn't say? I said, "If you're going to argue something, don't say they aren't a good team". I didn't say you said they were bad... and didn't imply it. I was implying that you shouldn't use the A's "failures" as reason that their strategy hasn't worked successfully.

I also don't want anything to be personal, and don't hold anything against you. It just seems ridiculous that the main argument against "Moneyball" or sabermetrics in general, is that the A's havn't won the World Series in the past 5 years. Well, neither have 25 other teams. It doesn't mean that their strategies havn't worked.

I'd say that having the second highest win total over a span of 5 years, while having the 7th lowest salary in all of baseball, is a pretty good accomplishment, and if the reasons that they accomplished this can be explained and understood people should take notice. NY, Boston, and Atlaanta were brought upn as teams that have had playoff success... well all three are in the top 5 in salary. But it's so popular amongst baseball traditionalists to say Oakland sucks and Moneyball is pointless, that all traditionalists automatically take on that stance it seems.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:51 am

Why do the Twins never get talked about? They pretty much win their division every year with about the same payroll as the As. Is it because they don't have a book written about them?
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