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Postby Phatferd » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:57 pm

Pudge is the best. I think Posada, Varitek and Javy all fall into a whirlwind of equal talent. Kendall is solid, but doesn't hit for any power to be put in here. I think Vic is on the outside of all these guys except Kendall. I also think Ramon Hernandez can have a good year. Maybe not as good as those guys though.
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Postby Yoda » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:10 pm

Phatferd wrote:Pudge is the best. I think Posada, Varitek and Javy all fall into a whirlwind of equal talent. Kendall is solid, but doesn't hit for any power to be put in here. I think Vic is on the outside of all these guys except Kendall. I also think Ramon Hernandez can have a good year. Maybe not as good as those guys though.


I can understand if you are down on Victor but my point is that until he shows that he is not for real, you can't count against him. What is your basis for him not repeating or improving on his 04 season?
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Postby nuggets » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:27 pm

Yoda wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Hey nuggets why did Lee end up not living up to his numbers then? If their minor league stats mean everything, then why is it that Lee who had better minor league stats didn't pan out?

Its funny because yoda throws out K/BB and SLG both of which didn't help prove anything.

I am not saying Vic will be bad, I am just saying he is not a guarantee to be the next best Catcher.


Are you serious? LOOK AT HIS MLB STATS. You are comparing Travis Lee and Victor Martinez? I can't even argue with that.



OPS and BB/K are very important, IMO
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Postby Phatferd » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:10 pm

Yoda wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Pudge is the best. I think Posada, Varitek and Javy all fall into a whirlwind of equal talent. Kendall is solid, but doesn't hit for any power to be put in here. I think Vic is on the outside of all these guys except Kendall. I also think Ramon Hernandez can have a good year. Maybe not as good as those guys though.


I can understand if you are down on Victor but my point is that until he shows that he is not for real, you can't count against him. What is your basis for him not repeating or improving on his 04 season?


I don't think he is a horrible player, so if it came off like that then I am sorry. I think he is a good player, but I just think he is overvalued. I just don't see him repeating those numbers from last year.

I think a lot had to do with the lineup he was in all had career years and he was a benefit of that.
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Postby Yoda » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:20 pm

Phatferd wrote:I think he is a good player, but I just think he is overvalued. I just don't see him repeating those numbers from last year.

I think a lot had to do with the lineup he was in all had career years and he was a benefit of that.


Just so that we are clear, you are saying that Martinez was a benefactor of a good line up?

He is in his pre-peak stage. To say that he won't get better when clearly he has done so at every level including the majors is a little inaccurate.
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Postby DK » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:33 pm

A few things to note:

A) Although it's true that you cannot fully judge a player's future by his minor league statistics, as a whole most players do have numbers similar to their MLE's.

B) Travis Lee's great stretch was in A-league in a hitter's league, and in AAA in a huge hitter's league. Adjustments do need to be made.

C) I don't have V-Mart on any teams, but that's not because I avoided him. Just luck of the draw.
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Postby davidmarver » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:49 pm

Yoda wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Yeah, don't get too carried away with minor league numbers. And for the record, Victor's good numbers in the minor leagues came as a 23 year old in AA ball and as a 22 year old in A ball, so I don't think that's as encouraging as you may think.


Ummm how many catchers do you know come up to MLB and hit right away?

Pudge didn't hit 20 HRs until his 6th full season in the majors. Sure, he came up as a 20 year old but he didn't hit more HRs than Victor until he was 27.

Javy Lopez didn't become a regular until he was 25. But he never had the level of patience and discipline Victor has already shown in the majors.

Posada wasn't a regular until he was 28(!) when he had his coming out season.

So other than Piazza, who is arguably the best hitting catch of all time other than Johnny Bench, which catcher in our era has shown both the plate discipline and power that Victor has this early in his career?


My post was meant to display that Victor has been playing out of his element in the minor leagues...the only years he was playing in the right league for his age he posted average numbers.

You'd probably be the first to argue against Jake Peavy repeating his numbers (I think that was you who argued he wouldn't get close to touching last years numbers), but he, as a 22 year old led the majors in ERA, while a player like VMart only hit 10 homeruns in A ball at that age. Granted, that's like comparing apples and oranges (pitcher to catcher), but it just shows that a player like VMart might have taken advantage of the age gap instead of posting truly impressive numbers.

Yes, his plate discipline is encouraging, but you have to view the bigger picture. Offensive catchers are rare and consistent producers are few and far inbetween. Once pitchers find a weak spot on Victor Martinez, I expect his numbers to drop, granted he still will be a top five-ten fantasy catcher regardless.

And Posada was a regular at 26, not 28, as you said. Anytime a player starts 2/3rds of a teams games, he's a regular.
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Postby Yoda » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:18 pm

davidmarver wrote:
Yoda wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Yeah, don't get too carried away with minor league numbers. And for the record, Victor's good numbers in the minor leagues came as a 23 year old in AA ball and as a 22 year old in A ball, so I don't think that's as encouraging as you may think.


Ummm how many catchers do you know come up to MLB and hit right away?

Pudge didn't hit 20 HRs until his 6th full season in the majors. Sure, he came up as a 20 year old but he didn't hit more HRs than Victor until he was 27.

Javy Lopez didn't become a regular until he was 25. But he never had the level of patience and discipline Victor has already shown in the majors.

Posada wasn't a regular until he was 28(!) when he had his coming out season.

So other than Piazza, who is arguably the best hitting catch of all time other than Johnny Bench, which catcher in our era has shown both the plate discipline and power that Victor has this early in his career?


My post was meant to display that Victor has been playing out of his element in the minor leagues...the only years he was playing in the right league for his age he posted average numbers.

You'd probably be the first to argue against Jake Peavy repeating his numbers (I think that was you who argued he wouldn't get close to touching last years numbers), but he, as a 22 year old led the majors in ERA, while a player like VMart only hit 10 homeruns in A ball at that age. Granted, that's like comparing apples and oranges (pitcher to catcher), but it just shows that a player like VMart might have taken advantage of the age gap instead of posting truly impressive numbers.

Yes, his plate discipline is encouraging, but you have to view the bigger picture. Offensive catchers are rare and consistent producers are few and far inbetween. Once pitchers find a weak spot on Victor Martinez, I expect his numbers to drop, granted he still will be a top five-ten fantasy catcher regardless.

And Posada was a regular at 26, not 28, as you said. Anytime a player starts 2/3rds of a teams games, he's a regular.


Really? And how come starting pitchers haven't caught up to VMart? He's been in the league for 1 1/2 years. Oh BTW, he just went deep against one of the best pitchers on the planet.

OK. Posada was a regular at 26. Still a very weak arguments since he didnt' show any offensive prowess until he was 28 in his first full season when he didn't have to split time with Girardi. Is this really all you have?
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Postby davidmarver » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:30 pm

Yoda wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
Yoda wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Yeah, don't get too carried away with minor league numbers. And for the record, Victor's good numbers in the minor leagues came as a 23 year old in AA ball and as a 22 year old in A ball, so I don't think that's as encouraging as you may think.


Ummm how many catchers do you know come up to MLB and hit right away?

Pudge didn't hit 20 HRs until his 6th full season in the majors. Sure, he came up as a 20 year old but he didn't hit more HRs than Victor until he was 27.

Javy Lopez didn't become a regular until he was 25. But he never had the level of patience and discipline Victor has already shown in the majors.

Posada wasn't a regular until he was 28(!) when he had his coming out season.

So other than Piazza, who is arguably the best hitting catch of all time other than Johnny Bench, which catcher in our era has shown both the plate discipline and power that Victor has this early in his career?


My post was meant to display that Victor has been playing out of his element in the minor leagues...the only years he was playing in the right league for his age he posted average numbers.

You'd probably be the first to argue against Jake Peavy repeating his numbers (I think that was you who argued he wouldn't get close to touching last years numbers), but he, as a 22 year old led the majors in ERA, while a player like VMart only hit 10 homeruns in A ball at that age. Granted, that's like comparing apples and oranges (pitcher to catcher), but it just shows that a player like VMart might have taken advantage of the age gap instead of posting truly impressive numbers.

Yes, his plate discipline is encouraging, but you have to view the bigger picture. Offensive catchers are rare and consistent producers are few and far inbetween. Once pitchers find a weak spot on Victor Martinez, I expect his numbers to drop, granted he still will be a top five-ten fantasy catcher regardless.

And Posada was a regular at 26, not 28, as you said. Anytime a player starts 2/3rds of a teams games, he's a regular.


Really? And how come starting pitchers haven't caught up to VMart? He's been in the league for 1 1/2 years. Oh BTW, he just went deep against one of the best pitchers on the planet.

OK. Posada was a regular at 26. Still a very weak arguments since he didnt' show any offensive prowess until he was 28 in his first full season when he didn't have to split time with Girardi. Is this really all you have?


You havn't shown me anything other than "he's just gone deep". By the way, Geoff Blum went deep off Kerry Wood...doesn't mean he's worth anything.

The reason players have 'sophmore slumps' is because pitchers catch up to them and learn how to pitch to them. The players don't actually lose any skill.

VMart had one good year when he was in the right league for his age. I'd be surprised if he repeats last years numbers. I think .280, 20 homeruns, 85 rbi are realistic numbers. Granted, they are good numbers, but I don't think he has a good enough track record against the type of talent he's facing to continue his numbers from last year.
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Postby d18Mike » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:38 pm

I like V-Mart, but I have a steadfast policy of not drafting ROYs and first full year phemons. It has served me well. People simply overpay for them based on incomplete tracks records. Sure, I've probably lost out on some opportunties, but by and large it has served me well.
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