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Postby Yoda » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:35 am

Phatferd wrote:Hey nuggets why did Lee end up not living up to his numbers then? If their minor league stats mean everything, then why is it that Lee who had better minor league stats didn't pan out?

Its funny because yoda throws out K/BB and SLG both of which didn't help prove anything.

I am not saying Vic will be bad, I am just saying he is not a guarantee to be the next best Catcher.


Are you serious? LOOK AT HIS MLB STATS. You are comparing Travis Lee and Victor Martinez? I can't even argue with that.
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Postby perlick29 » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:06 am

Yoda wrote:So other than Piazza, who is arguably the best hitting catch of all time other than Johnny Bench, which catcher in our era has shown both the plate discipline and power that Victor has this early in his career?


Yogi Berra. ;-D That is the Vmart's strongest comparable according to Baseball Prospectus. Victor Martinez is on the Yogi Berra baseball career path. Not bad.
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Postby Phatferd » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:18 pm

Yoda wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Hey nuggets why did Lee end up not living up to his numbers then? If their minor league stats mean everything, then why is it that Lee who had better minor league stats didn't pan out?

Its funny because yoda throws out K/BB and SLG both of which didn't help prove anything.

I am not saying Vic will be bad, I am just saying he is not a guarantee to be the next best Catcher.


Are you serious? LOOK AT HIS MLB STATS. You are comparing Travis Lee and Victor Martinez? I can't even argue with that.


Yoga this is the most ignorant post you have made. Lee and Martinez had similar if not almost identical minor league careers. Lee had almost the same rookie year Vic had. How are the two different?

You are attacking my argument because Lee sucks. That is the point! All I ask you is why are these two different? Vic hasn't had the luxory of playing 8 more seasons, but in 8 years will we be saying the same thing about him?

You do a good job of not even understanding the opposites perspective, just to prove your sabermetrics theory. The theory has flaws. Someone said it best when they said Statistics can't predict anything they are records that show you what someone has done in the past.
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:32 pm

Almost identical? As in it is almost identical when one of the two drives in 30 more runs, hits almost 20 points higher and plays a much more physically demanding position?
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Postby Phatferd » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:45 pm

SouthBronxBombers wrote:Almost identical? As in it is almost identical when one of the two drives in 30 more runs, hits almost 20 points higher and plays a much more physically demanding position?


Let's be a little more accurate here. Vic hit 14 points higher closer to 10 than 20. Yes, he had a lot more RBIs, but Lee played for an awful expansion team his rookie year. Doesn't the whole theory that Yoda subscribes to suggest that RBIs are a random stat?

Also I said they were comparable. It doesn't even matter because nobody can say how well he will hit or do, not a single person can predict the future. I just feel Vic is not as great as people think. He is still a good player, but he is not worth a top 5 rd pick.

Anyone care to do a bet on Vics performance this year? Something like having to put something in their sig or an avatar?
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Postby Yoda » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:50 pm

Phatferd wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Hey nuggets why did Lee end up not living up to his numbers then? If their minor league stats mean everything, then why is it that Lee who had better minor league stats didn't pan out?

Its funny because yoda throws out K/BB and SLG both of which didn't help prove anything.

I am not saying Vic will be bad, I am just saying he is not a guarantee to be the next best Catcher.


Are you serious? LOOK AT HIS MLB STATS. You are comparing Travis Lee and Victor Martinez? I can't even argue with that.


Yoga this is the most ignorant post you have made. Lee and Martinez had similar if not almost identical minor league careers. Lee had almost the same rookie year Vic had. How are the two different?

You are attacking my argument because Lee sucks. That is the point! All I ask you is why are these two different? Vic hasn't had the luxory of playing 8 more seasons, but in 8 years will we be saying the same thing about him?

You do a good job of not even understanding the opposites perspective, just to prove your sabermetrics theory. The theory has flaws. Someone said it best when they said Statistics can't predict anything they are records that show you what someone has done in the past.


OK... you asked for it. Let's compare Lee and Martinez. First of all, Lee plays 1B. I've already demonstrated that it takes C's more time to develop offensively in the majors. Let me know if you disagree with this.

Second of all, Victor in his ONLY full season out produced Lee in any one season in his entire CAREER at almost every offensive category of importance. Let me know if you disagree with this point.

So you are really comparing apples and oranges. If you want to make reasonable comparisons, you should be comparing him to his fellow position players like Javy Lopez, Pudge, Piazza and Posada, all of whom have been the best offensive players at the position for the last 10 years. Let me know if you disagree with this point.
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Postby Phatferd » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:59 pm

I'm not going to show the light, since you refuse to listen to anything I have to suggest. I am not trying to sway your opinion, I only want you to admit that minor league numbers don't equate to everything.

Wanna take up the bet? It can be your way to prove me wrong!
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Postby Yoda » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:12 pm

Phatferd wrote:I'm not going to show the light, since you refuse to listen to anything I have to suggest. I am not trying to sway your opinion, I only want you to admit that minor league numbers don't equate to everything.

Wanna take up the bet? It can be your way to prove me wrong!


What am I supposed to listen to? That Victor Martinez is Travis Lee? That Victor Martinez who was one of the best prospects in the minors proved himself in his first full season is a fluke?

Look at his inside numbers for 04. His K/BB, SLG, OBP, 2B total and look up his situational stats. He not only hit great but he was also very clutch if you actually saw him play.

Am I blindly looking at minor league numbers only? VMart did put up great numbers in the majors in 04 no? Does he still look like a fluke to you?

He started off slow in 04 as well. We are not even finished with week 2 and people are already writing him off. You don't have to like him but you have to admit that he is a top 3 offensive catcher in the majors.
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Postby Phatferd » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:38 pm

Do you want to bet or not? Victor had as many poor months as he did good ones. I saw him play a lot I have Extra Innings and watched the Tribe a lot last year. He is a fine player, but he isn't worthy of a top 5 pick is all I am saying.

I say he hits below 290, sub 90 RBIs, sub 25. If he hits 289 with 24 89, that is good, I know that. However, you can get more value than that in the top 5 rounds. Also, I still think his numbers will be worse than that.

Wanna make a bet that he is not a top 3 catcher at the end of the year based on Yahoos rankings? And I mean Rank not O-Rank, cause O-Rank takes multiple years into the equation.
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Postby Yoda » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:48 pm

Phatferd wrote:Do you want to bet or not? Victor had as many poor months as he did good ones. I saw him play a lot I have Extra Innings and watched the Tribe a lot last year. He is a fine player, but he isn't worthy of a top 5 pick is all I am saying.

I say he hits below 290, sub 90 RBIs, sub 25. If he hits 289 with 24 89, that is good, I know that. However, you can get more value than that in the top 5 rounds. Also, I still think his numbers will be worse than that.

Wanna make a bet that he is not a top 3 catcher at the end of the year based on Yahoos rankings? And I mean Rank not O-Rank, cause O-Rank takes multiple years into the equation.


If he does hit like what you say, then I agree that he is not worth a top 5 pick. However, I am willing to bet my house that he will most certainly be a top 3 catcher. Who will be better? Pudge? Piazza? Javy? Closser?
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