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Postby kcs261 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:31 am

Shoot, I don't like Hampton, either. But here's the difference:

Dontrelle Willis is 23 and had a sophmore slump after a great rookie campaign.

On the other hand, Mike Hampton is almost a decade older, at 32, and has been pretty mediocre even the last two seasons in Atlanta. In particular, the K/BB ratio stinks and his WHIP ratios have been sub-par in Atlanta.

Put another way, a pitcher doesn't usually peak in his 30s, while a pitcher does usuall peak somewhere in his 20s.

So I don't understant the Hampton and Willis comparison. These are two guys in totally different places in their careers.

Willis certainly has room for improvement.
Last edited by kcs261 on Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby baseballnewb » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:32 am

Willis has actually altered his mechanics and timing in order to try to be more consistant. He's also a young guy. There is no reason he can't step it up a notch this year and become a very good pitcher. Hampton is a veteran who has had like one or two good years, comparing him to willis is rediculous.
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Postby agchris02 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 am

To fill everyone in on the details:

During the draft, he was taken by a 2nd yr owner in the 5th round, I mocked him repeatedly. He said "You wait, two weeks in Willis will be the leader in Complete Game Shutouts"

I again mocked him for being a moron.
Evidently he had some divine powers though and was correct. I still think Willis is too early in the 5th round, and yes, I know he wont keep this up all year. However, I have revised my opinion of his mediocrity. He is now creeping up to a solid mid-level starter.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:41 am

kcs261 wrote:Shoot, I don't like Hampton, either. But here's the difference:

Dontrelle Willis is 23 and had a sophmore slump after a great rookie campaign.

On the other hand, Mike Hampton is almost a decade older, at 32, and has been pretty mediocre even the last two seasons in Atlanta. In particular, the K/BB ratio stinks and so do his WHIP ratios have been sub-par in Atlanta.

Put another way, a pitcher doesn't usually peak in his 30s, while a pitcher does usuall peak somewhere in his 20s.

So I don't understant the Hampton and Willis comparison. These are two guys in totally different places in their careers.

Willis certainly has room for improvement.


I was using them as examples of players off to good starts that people will over-value. Both to different degrees, given Hampton's crappiness, and Dontrelle's youth.

Hampton I expect absolutely nothing out of, and Willis I expect a high 3's ERA (close to 4) with not a lot of K's, and a considerably bad WHIP. He's young, yes, but he just doens't seem like the kind of pitcher who can survive long-term. He relies more on deception and letting batters get themselves out which requires a certain type of pitcher (Webb, Hudson, and other sinkerballers) that I just don't think he is.
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Postby matdemos » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:53 am

agchris02 wrote:To fill everyone in on the details:

During the draft, he was taken by a 2nd yr owner in the 5th round, I mocked him repeatedly. He said "You wait, two weeks in Willis will be the leader in Complete Game Shutouts"

I again mocked him for being a moron.
Evidently he had some divine powers though and was correct. I still think Willis is too early in the 5th round, and yes, I know he wont keep this up all year. However, I have revised my opinion of his mediocrity. He is now creeping up to a solid mid-level starter.


holy crap, he actually said that? that's some clairvoyant [stuff]. but what a waste of such remarkable powers; even handicapping Willis two CGSOs, i'd still only pick him in like....the 9th, tops.
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Postby kcs261 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:16 am

It kills me how people love a young pitcher, Bonderman, with a 4.9 ERA last year. But people hate Willis with an ERA of 4.02.

Willis must have secretly nailed everybody's girlfriend or something. I don't get it. Either that, or maybe just all the media hype in 2003 turned everybody off.
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Postby slomo007 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:21 am

LBJ is a very controversial poster around here, he posts his thoughts and isn't afraid of it. I respect that he has strong opinions, it just so happens that I usually think they're dead wrong. Sorry LBJ, Dontrelle's a very solid pitcher. Not ace material at this point in his career, but an ERA around or a little below 4.0 and quite a few Ks is nothing to turn a cheek at.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:21 am

kcs261 wrote:It kills me how people love a young pitcher, Bonderman, with a 4.9 ERA last year. But people hate Willis with an ERA of 4.02.

Willis must have secretly nailed everybody's girlfriend or something. I don't get it. Either that, or maybe just all the media hype on 2003 turned everybody off.


Who are you talking about? You keep going on about all this stuff but and not giving any examples of these people or reasons why a pitcher's ERA at age 22 is the skill and potential he has.

Dontrelle got by with deception in 2003. Taht doesn't work long term.

Bonderman entered the majors at age 20, and is still improving. I've been one that says he's had too much hype, but you can't lok at hsi ERA and say that he won't be a good pitcher this year.

So don't just spout off about how people are down on Dontrelle and high on Bonderman... and Dontrelle is better because his ERA was better last year. There's a lot more to it than that. Westbrook had a great ERA last year and is only 26 but he's not nearly as good as Bonderman or Willis.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:28 am

slomo007 wrote:LBJ is a very controversial poster around here, he posts his thoughts and isn't afraid of it. I respect that he has strong opinions, it just so happens that I usually think they're dead wrong. Sorry LBJ, Dontrelle's a very solid pitcher. Not ace material at this point in his career, but an ERA around or a little below 4.0 and quite a few Ks is nothing to turn a cheek at.


I'm not turning my cheek at it. That's what he can do, and that's good enough to be drafted and help a team. I just don't think he's superstar material. There's a difference between being a solid 3.9 ERA 1.4 WHIP pitcher with considerably less than a K per inning (which is what I see him as), and being a low-mid 3's ERA pitcher which is what some poeple are saying he is, or will be. And apparently people think he WON'T hurt you in WHIP and K's, which is not the case. He's not a K pitcher, and his WHIP will be bad, even if he manages to keep his ERA low.

You've thought I was dead wrong on Buehrle and Hampton, and we'll see how that turns out at the end of the year. I seem to remember you disagreeing about Horacio Ramirez being a horrible pitcher. It will be fun at the end of the year to go over all those things... I know I'll be wrong on some, but right on a lot more than you think I will.
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Postby slomo007 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:35 am

LBJackal wrote:
slomo007 wrote:LBJ is a very controversial poster around here, he posts his thoughts and isn't afraid of it. I respect that he has strong opinions, it just so happens that I usually think they're dead wrong. Sorry LBJ, Dontrelle's a very solid pitcher. Not ace material at this point in his career, but an ERA around or a little below 4.0 and quite a few Ks is nothing to turn a cheek at.


I'm not turning my cheek at it. That's what he can do, and that's good enough to be drafted and help a team. I just don't think he's superstar material. There's a difference between being a solid 3.9 ERA 1.4 WHIP pitcher with considerably less than a K per inning (which is what I see him as), and being a low-mid 3's ERA pitcher which is what some poeple are saying he is, or will be. And apparently people think he WON'T hurt you in WHIP and K's, which is not the case. He's not a K pitcher, and his WHIP will be bad, even if he manages to keep his ERA low.

You've thought I was dead wrong on Buehrle and Hampton, and we'll see how that turns out at the end of the year. I seem to remember you disagreeing about Horacio Ramirez being a horrible pitcher. It will be fun at the end of the year to go over all those things... I know I'll be wrong on some, but right on a lot more than you think I will.


I'm thinking Dontrelle puts up something like 3.6-3.8 with a 1.3 WHIP personally. I agree with you that he's being overvalued by some, but that's still useful in a fantasy league...particularly pitching for a team as good as the Marlins.

And yeah those seem to be the guys we disagree on mostly...I don't follow HoRam as much as Buehrle or Hampton though...I'd say those are the two I'm most confident in. On the bright side, we do agree on Beltran being undervalued and Burrell overvalued. Maybe it's just pitchers we should avoid discussing. :-b
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