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Why does a starter need to go 5 innings for a win?

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Postby TheYanks04 » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:55 pm

Oddity in the rules that is unavoidable. And one of the many reasons that no one looks at Ws in the pen when figuring alsaries/who to sign as RPs. It is all luck and often a reliever with a lot of wins in the pen did so because he blew a lot of leads.
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Postby LouisC9999 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:47 am

TheYanks04 wrote:Pitchers used to finish what they started in the old days.


Funny that this should be mentioned now. Yesterday, I was browsing through the stats of some of the star pitchers I followed when I was growing up in the late 60's/early 70's.

Jim Palmer, Catfish Hunter, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, etc. 20+ complete game seasons were the norm back then. I can imagine what the pitch counts were like.
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Postby quietstorm » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:58 am

LouisC9999 wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:Pitchers used to finish what they started in the old days.


Funny that this should be mentioned now. Yesterday, I was browsing through the stats of some of the star pitchers I followed when I was growing up in the late 60's/early 70's.

Jim Palmer, Catfish Hunter, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, etc. 20+ complete game seasons were the norm back then. I can imagine what the pitch counts were like.

Yup... high pitchcounts. That's why there was more turnover with starters, too. They didn't use less pitchers in the past, but the good ones pitched full games a lot. (The '03 M's used 5 pitchers to start all 162 games. That's only the second time it's happened since 1901, the other team being the '66 Dodgers. Think about that... there's no real decline here in pitching performances, just more continuity.)
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:52 am

LouisC9999 wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:Pitchers used to finish what they started in the old days.


Funny that this should be mentioned now. Yesterday, I was browsing through the stats of some of the star pitchers I followed when I was growing up in the late 60's/early 70's.

Jim Palmer, Catfish Hunter, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, etc. 20+ complete game seasons were the norm back then. I can imagine what the pitch counts were like.


There are many reasons for that including stronger union, bigger contracts, bullpen specialization, caring about pitch counts, etc. I don't like it, either.
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Postby great gretzky » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:09 am

The rule is kind of stupid. but then again, you can't say the initial pitcher "won" the game either. You didn't "hit the game winner" in hoops if you took a lead, other team comes back, then you ultimately won. The game is still in doubt.

The cutoff has to be somewhere.

I know there will be zero here who agree with me, but I will say it anyway.

I think it is dumb that in every instance a pitcher HAS to be named the winner to be honest. Sometimes all the pitchers really do is hurth the cause, and the offense won the game.
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Postby Eightan » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:05 am

TheYanks04 wrote:Oddity in the rules that is unavoidable. And one of the many reasons that no one looks at Ws in the pen when figuring alsaries/who to sign as RPs. It is all luck and often a reliever with a lot of wins in the pen did so because he blew a lot of leads.


yep, you want your relievers to have "holds" and "saves" not "wins" or "losses"
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:23 am

Why is it you have to complete 4.5 innings (if home team winning) to be a complete game for stats? I mean, rain in the 7th inning and all stats count, even if tied. Rain in the 3rd and all stats wiped away. Both games are replayed. Why? That's just the rules.

Baseball just has funny rules. Saves, for example. Start an inning with a three run lead - save. Come in with one out - no save. Pitch two innings with a 4 run lead - no save. Pitch 3 innings with a 10 run lead - save.

Rule is, a starter needs to go 5 to get a win. There's no excuse for a starter to have a 7-0 lead after 1.5 and throw 106 pitches. He knows the 5 inning rule and yet he nibbled. He got burned. Maybe next time, with a big lead, he'll nibble less, throw fewer pitches and pitch 5+ and get the win.
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