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Why is Clemens getting NO respect in pre-season rankings?

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Postby .38 Special » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:54 pm

Yoda wrote:What's even funnier is that people who are so down on Clemens are the ones taking RJ in the first round.


Good point.....I remember a RJ thread eirely close to this thread last year.
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Postby rainman23 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:48 pm

Not to mention that Unit has torn things up every year, except for his injury plagued one. When healthy, it's been a decade since he hasn't dominated. Clemens can't make that claim.
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Postby .38 Special » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:17 pm

rainman23 wrote:Not to mention that Unit has torn things up every year, except for his injury plagued one. When healthy, it's been a decade since he hasn't dominated. Clemens can't make that claim.


I would take RJ over him in a heartbeat.....but I do think he has been slipping too far in drafts, much like RJ did last year.
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Postby nuggets » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:59 am

thehat wrote:News flash: That old stadium in the Bronx where Rocket used to pitch? Not a great pitcher's park for righties. So stop with the ballpark comparisons, already. With the exception of a couple of locales (and we know what those are) the ballpark matters little if the pitcher is great. And last year, Clemens was sensational.

That said, I think he's a poor risk this year. Might not be in typical Rocket shape based on spring maladies, and the Astros are not goin to be very good. The setup guys in front of Lidge are brutal, which likely means a few less wins for all the starters.


Is he worth an 87th pick in a stnd. 5 x 5 roto league?
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Postby nuggets » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:01 am

CubsFan7724 wrote:
Yoda wrote:What's even funnier is that people who are so down on Clemens are the ones taking RJ in the first round.

Because RJ was the rightful Cy Young. He had better numbers in everything except wins. Which is team dependent and a horrible way to hand out Cy Youngs.


But are Cy Young totals a stat in FBB?
Last edited by nuggets on Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nuggets » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:06 am

LBJackal wrote: I wouldn't consider him(Clemens) before #70 and that is assuming the first 70 picks are also my top 70 ranked played. That's not very likely.


LBJackal wrote:He's still way over-rated IMO. Look at his stats before 2004. Not that great. Having the short porch in LF will only hurt him. I'll let somebody else take the risk. It's not even a health risk to me (although that's part of it) it's that his performance in 2002 and 2003 does not come close to warranting his 2005 draft position. Then you factor in the park he's playing in.... I'll stay away.



LBJackal wrote:
nuggets wrote:
klvrdude wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yeah he REALLY slowed down a lot in 04 all the way through the playoffs.

Last year was the first time he had an ERA under 3 in 6 years. It was also the first time he had a WHIP under 1.20 in 5. Don't expect him to repeat last years numbers.


Good point. I think his honeymoon period in Houston is over.


Uhhh I think YODA was being a little sarcastic. Does anyone remember how Clemens finished the season? I'll remind you:

Sept '04
6 GS, 4 W, 0 L, 42.0 IP (7IP average), 12 BB, 46 K, 2.57 ERA, 0.93 WHIP, .182 BAA

;-D ;-D ;-D Does it get any better than that? Oh and his home ERA, WHIP and BAA kills his away for the whole season. Even more evidence that he can succeed @ home?


No, more evidence that people who own him will have their jaws closer to the floor when he starts giving up gopher balls left right and center (but mostly left, with that short porch).

There's no reason other than coicnidence that he was that much better at home. He got his fat contract, and in his mind is in Del Boca Vista right now. Not something I'd invest in.



LBJackal wrote:Then he moves to a park that allows a LOT of HR's especially with righties on the mound, and you say it's not a fluke he shaves a run off of his ERA? At age 42? You'll never be proven wrong until the season starts so lets just wait until we see how he does.


So what are your projections for Clemens?
Last edited by nuggets on Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby thehat » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:07 am

nuggets wrote:
thehat wrote:News flash: That old stadium in the Bronx where Rocket used to pitch? Not a great pitcher's park for righties. So stop with the ballpark comparisons, already. With the exception of a couple of locales (and we know what those are) the ballpark matters little if the pitcher is great. And last year, Clemens was sensational.

That said, I think he's a poor risk this year. Might not be in typical Rocket shape based on spring maladies, and the Astros are not goin to be very good. The setup guys in front of Lidge are brutal, which likely means a few less wins for all the starters.


Is he worth an 87th pick in a stnd. 5 x 5 roto league?


No way of answering this properly. I'd say yes if you struck out on getting one of the perceived elite with an earlier selection, but I'd probably go in another direction if you have already landed one or two top starters.
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Postby nuggets » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:10 pm

nuggets wrote:
LBJackal wrote: I wouldn't consider him(Clemens) before #70 and that is assuming the first 70 picks are also my top 70 ranked played. That's not very likely.


LBJackal wrote:He's still way over-rated IMO. Look at his stats before 2004. Not that great. Having the short porch in LF will only hurt him. I'll let somebody else take the risk. It's not even a health risk to me (although that's part of it) it's that his performance in 2002 and 2003 does not come close to warranting his 2005 draft position. Then you factor in the park he's playing in.... I'll stay away.



LBJackal wrote:
nuggets wrote:
klvrdude wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yeah he REALLY slowed down a lot in 04 all the way through the playoffs.

Last year was the first time he had an ERA under 3 in 6 years. It was also the first time he had a WHIP under 1.20 in 5. Don't expect him to repeat last years numbers.


Good point. I think his honeymoon period in Houston is over.


Uhhh I think YODA was being a little sarcastic. Does anyone remember how Clemens finished the season? I'll remind you:

Sept '04
6 GS, 4 W, 0 L, 42.0 IP (7IP average), 12 BB, 46 K, 2.57 ERA, 0.93 WHIP, .182 BAA

;-D ;-D ;-D Does it get any better than that? Oh and his home ERA, WHIP and BAA kills his away for the whole season. Even more evidence that he can succeed @ home?


No, more evidence that people who own him will have their jaws closer to the floor when he starts giving up gopher balls left right and center (but mostly left, with that short porch).

There's no reason other than coicnidence that he was that much better at home. He got his fat contract, and in his mind is in Del Boca Vista right now. Not something I'd invest in.



LBJackal wrote:Then he moves to a park that allows a LOT of HR's especially with righties on the mound, and you say it's not a fluke he shaves a run off of his ERA? At age 42? You'll never be proven wrong until the season starts so lets just wait until we see how he does.


So what are your projections for Clemens?




A lot of talk with no walk, LB.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:27 pm

What are you talking about? You want projections? Here:

14 W, 3.80 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 200 K's

I'm sorry I don't follow all the threads where you bicker about something I said. I know you don't agree, and you know you won't agree with my projections, why do you want them so badly?
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Postby nuggets » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:48 pm

LBJackal wrote:What are you talking about? You want projections? Here:

14 W, 3.80 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 200 K's

I'm sorry I don't follow all the threads where you bicker about something I said. I know you don't agree, and you know you won't agree with my projections, why do you want them so badly?


Yea I sorta specifically asked a few days ago. Wow those are pretty ok numbers for a guy you talked all that crap about being old, downhill and lucky. Mine would be not that far off from yours:


15 W, 205 K, 3.35 ERA, 1.23 WHIP
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