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Barry, Big Mac, and the Hall

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Postby GiantFan666 » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:39 pm

Boogster26 wrote:I took a look at Jedimintric's posting of Bonds' stats. They reveal something interesting. Bonds' HR's and Slugging Pct. went up as soon as he moved to San Francisco. They should have gone down with the move to Candlestick. My guess is that he started using some steroids the moment he got there.


I don't know if someone can dig-up some old park effect numbers
for 2 stadiums that are no longer used, but the dimensions are similar for the power alleys 335L 335R 400C for 3 rivers to 335L 330R 420C for Candlestick. Centerfield was a cavern in SF, but Barry drilled them into RF, not CF. In addition to that it was about 93' or so when Barry started wearing his body armor over his elbow
and could crowd the plate without as much fear of getting drilled
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Postby Boogster26 » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:57 pm

I never went to Candlestick. But my impression is that the big problem there was the murderous winds that kept the ball in the park.

Of course, Willie Mays and Willie McCovey did OK.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:22 pm

GiantFan666 wrote:
Boogster26 wrote:I took a look at Jedimintric's posting of Bonds' stats. They reveal something interesting. Bonds' HR's and Slugging Pct. went up as soon as he moved to San Francisco. They should have gone down with the move to Candlestick. My guess is that he started using some steroids the moment he got there.


I don't know if someone can dig-up some old park effect numbers
for 2 stadiums that are no longer used, but the dimensions are similar for the power alleys 335L 335R 400C for 3 rivers to 335L 330R 420C for Candlestick. Centerfield was a cavern in SF, but Barry drilled them into RF, not CF. In addition to that it was about 93' or so when Barry started wearing his body armor over his elbow
and could crowd the plate without as much fear of getting drilled


park factors for both stadiums during the early 1990s were in the 95-98 range, so there should not have been any expectation of a drop due to park with Barry's move.
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Postby TB13 » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:24 pm

[quote="JTWood"]Not in my opinion. Babe Ruth was an a**hole womanizer alcoholic. He's still the greatest ever and deserves to be there. Remember, the HoF just says that these guys are the greatest baseball players ever. It never proclaims to be the uber-Nobel Peace Prize.[/quote]

But Ruth never juiced to hit all of his homers. Or pitch all of his shutouts.
The fact of the matter is that while baseball may not have banned steroids initiall, they ARE an illegal substance in this country.
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Postby Boogster26 » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:07 pm

Nor did Babe Ruth ever play against a single Black or hispanic player.

The constitutional violation inherent in that situation is far more egregious that a bunch of drug abusers.
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Postby The Miner Part 2 » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:09 pm

SouthBronxBombers wrote:What about us black people who think Barry is a lying jerk, deuce? Are we racists that hate ourselves? Trying to claim that the animosity towards Barry is racist is asinine. In case you have missed it, it is a black man's record he is going to break. Why would racists care if a black man broke another black man's record? Barry is disliked because he is a pompous jerk, a cheater, a liar, an adulterer and just generally a sorry excuse for a human being. He blames everybody but himself for the things he has done. The media and racists did not force him to go have an affair. They did not force him to "unknowingly" use steroids, and his credibility on that issue is about as good as David Duke's on how good a man Dr. King was. Bonds made his own bed, and he doesn't want to lie in it. Barry has made conscious choices his entire life, and his sycophants want to ignore that and just blame everything on somebody else. A man owns up to his responsibilities and actions, he doesn't try to lay them off on somebody else. Bonds is a complete loser, and his race has nothing to do with that fact. He and his apologists want it to shield him, by claiming the criticsm is based in racism. It ain't. And it is an insult to those who faced real racism and rose above it.


you cant see, but im giving you a standing ovation as i type this. ;-)
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Postby bselig » Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:18 pm

haven't gone through all the posts in this thread so this might be redundant, but when i was growing up in the early ninties everyone assumed mcgwire was on roids - and this is like '91 - and ten years of that is enough to deny him the hof as far as i'm concerned; bonds, as has been said by others, was a hofer before he got big...he's in the hof

roids(mcgwire) = great player -> hofer
potential roids(bonds) = hofer -> top 5 player alltime
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:37 am

Roid talk is getting old. You can't deny some so called cheaters from the HOF, with the HOF with it's own cheaters. Why not start with Ruth who corked his bats? Nah of course not, he was a icon.

The Kingman - McGwire comparisions was about the worst attempt at comparisions i have ever seen. Like night and day. Kingman never walked, made lots of outs. McGwire walked, made far fewer outs. In fact, Mac was a better hitter then Reggie Jackson, who few complain about his career 262 average. McGwire wasn't one dimensional (hrs). He walked alot, great oba, (created runs). Most 1b don't run, it's a power position. McCovey didn't run, and Mac has the better career ops+ and abr, (adjusted batting runs).
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Postby bleach168 » Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:08 am

Why are we living in the past? I'm not going to give any cheater a free pass just because the guy before them was also a cheater and got a free pass.

I wasn't old enough to watch Aaron, Maris, Ruth, Koufax or whoever. I don't care if they cheated or are bad people. I have no allegience to any of them. Let their generation judge their worthiness.

All I know is Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa and if it is proven that these guys cheated, no way would I vote them into the HoF. If you get caught, bottomline, you should be punished. In football, if you commit a penalty, they take away any gains you made AND on top of that penalize you extra yards. So if Bonds hypothetically hit 200 homeruns while juiced, not only do those 200 get taken away, but an additional 200 legit homeruns should be taken away leaving him with 300.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:31 am

bleach168 wrote:All I know is Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa and if it is proven that these guys cheated, no way would I vote them into the HoF. If you get caught, bottomline, you should be punished. So if Bonds hypothetically hit 200 homeruns while juiced, not only do those 200 get taken away, but an additional 200 legit homeruns should be taken away leaving him with 300.


One, even if convicted, there's no way to prove they hit 200 more or 1 more. Second, until 2003, roids were not illegal in MLB. Between 84-96 players tested positive that year, with no suspensions. Somebody in MLB must have had a good reason there were no rules against it. It's not the players job to decide the rules, just play by the rules. You can't go back in time and say deduct this, or asterisk that. It's insane. If you want to enforce the penalty at the time like (George Brett's pine tar hr), fine.
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