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Barry, Big Mac, and the Hall

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Postby beltrans_boy » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:34 pm

moochman wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:It's as simple as that, folks. Precedent was set with Pete Rose. He broke the rules of baseball, thus he's not allowed in the HoF. That should be the standard by which all ballplayers are judged.


That's incorrect, the standard by which all ballplayers are judged is their numbers. Hit over 3,000 hits = in. Win over 300 games = in. Hit over 500 HRs = in. And there's the rub. HR numbers have been artificially inflated during the steroid era. Sosa, Bonds, And McLiar are the figureheads of MLB's tainted monter mashers.

Bonds is a lock to be a first ballot HOFer. He has put up the numbers worthy of one of the best players ever. And that is prior to him disgracing himself. Barry won 3 MVP awards as a stick figure. His credentials are solid and beyond reproach.
Mark McLiar, however, is a different story. Here we have the case of a player who prior to cheating was never going to be mentioned in the same breath as the HOF. His injuries alone would have prevented him from playing enough to put up the numbers needed. I would hope that the voters would take that into consideration when they vote. Even if they feel that both are lying and have deceived baseball, themselves, and the fans, they must remember who is the fraud and who is a HOFer.
Throw McLiar to the curb, but Bonds earned his place.


I think it IS as simple as that, though. Based on raw numbers, Rose should have been voted into the HoF years ago. He's not allowed in because he broke the rules of the game. I don't care what kind of #'s players put up, if it is PROVEN that they cheated at ANY point in their career, they should be denied admission into the hall. I don't care what kind of career numbers they put up before or after they cheated. Baseball needs to protect itself, and promoting cheating by admitting cheaters into the Hall is not the way to do it.

That being said, as of right now, there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence that Bonds or McGwire cheated during their careers. We have to assume that their numbers are naturally obtained and that they never broke the rules of MLB. So I say, let them in. If it comes out later that they knowingly cheated the game of baseball, then don't let them in. That's the criterion which I'd use to judge Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Giambi or anybody else in Major League Baseball.
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Postby moochman » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:11 pm

beltrans_boy wrote:I think it IS as simple as that, though. Based on raw numbers, Rose should have been voted into the HoF years ago. He's not allowed in because he broke the rules of the game. I don't care what kind of #'s players put up, if it is PROVEN that they cheated at ANY point in their career, they should be denied admission into the hall. I don't care what kind of career numbers they put up before or after they cheated. Baseball needs to protect itself, and promoting cheating by admitting cheaters into the Hall is not the way to do it.


The line I've highlighted should show how it is not at all simple. There is one major problem that too few of us consider: MLB's role in this scandal. It was MLB who allowed steroid use by not insisting that it be tested for and punished before the bloated HR totals appeared. Now having turned a blind eye and therefore indirectly encouraging players to use steroids we should expect them to test for it and mete out punishment? Of course they will be reluctant to do anything. It would only serve to implicate themselves. They may have proof that we aren't aware of that they never intend to use just to keep their image from being further damaged.

This is mere reckless speculation, I have to stress this, but what if there were reasons for players suddenly losing weight or outright quitting. How many reduced players have we seen already this spring? Not-so-Pudge=20 pounds lighter. And there have been a lot of players who were more weight conscious this off-season. And the quitters. Bonds leaps right to the forefront, but what of Roberto Alomar? Or even more suspicious, his teammate Batista? Why would a guy who left the Tigers as a hack, finds weight room religion and suddenly has the skills to sign a nice contract and is given a starting job, decides to quit? Forced out? Who knows. My point is that maybe MLB is exerting pressure on those who have tested positive to leave of their own accord and save all the humiliation.

No, MLB is too dirty with this to police it properly, IMO. Bonds, Soso, McLiar are all guilty, I believe, but not as guilty as MLB.
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Postby JTWood » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:21 pm

The difference between Rose and steroid users - and correct me if I'm wrong here - is that Rose broke a written rule. Steroids/performance-enhancing druges were not explicity banned.
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Postby Honus » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:36 pm

moochman wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:I think it IS as simple as that, though. Based on raw numbers, Rose should have been voted into the HoF years ago. He's not allowed in because he broke the rules of the game. I don't care what kind of #'s players put up, if it is PROVEN that they cheated at ANY point in their career, they should be denied admission into the hall. I don't care what kind of career numbers they put up before or after they cheated. Baseball needs to protect itself, and promoting cheating by admitting cheaters into the Hall is not the way to do it.


The line I've highlighted should show how it is not at all simple. There is one major problem that too few of us consider: MLB's role in this scandal. It was MLB who allowed steroid use by not insisting that it be tested for and punished before the bloated HR totals appeared. Now having turned a blind eye and therefore indirectly encouraging players to use steroids we should expect them to test for it and mete out punishment? Of course they will be reluctant to do anything. It would only serve to implicate themselves. They may have proof that we aren't aware of that they never intend to use just to keep their image from being further damaged.

This is mere reckless speculation, I have to stress this, but what if there were reasons for players suddenly losing weight or outright quitting. How many reduced players have we seen already this spring? Not-so-Pudge=20 pounds lighter. And there have been a lot of players who were more weight conscious this off-season. And the quitters. Bonds leaps right to the forefront, but what of Roberto Alomar? Or even more suspicious, his teammate Batista? Why would a guy who left the Tigers as a hack, finds weight room religion and suddenly has the skills to sign a nice contract and is given a starting job, decides to quit? Forced out? Who knows. My point is that maybe MLB is exerting pressure on those who have tested positive to leave of their own accord and save all the humiliation.

No, MLB is too dirty with this to police it properly, IMO. Bonds, Soso, McLiar are all guilty, I believe, but not as guilty as MLB.


You are exactly right about MLB's role in the scandal. That's why Selig and Fehr make this out to be "complicated," because they are trying to protect themselves, their past decisions and their poor leadership. They need to be removed. A new commissioner wouldn't have this conflict and could start fresh. As Beltran's Boy said, it IS very simple - you cheat, you shouldn't get rewarded.
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Postby gtabaplayr » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:54 pm

[quote="JTWood"]The difference between Rose and steroid users - and correct me if I'm wrong here - is that Rose broke a written rule. Steroids/performance-enhancing druges were not explicity banned.[/quote]

Not explicitly banned in the books of baseball but certainly banned in the book of Congress. Personally that argument is worthless considering US law superceeds everything else in the land--
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Postby JTWood » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:55 pm

gtabaplayr wrote:
JTWood wrote:The difference between Rose and steroid users - and correct me if I'm wrong here - is that Rose broke a written rule. Steroids and performance-enhancing druges were not explicity banned.


Not explicitly banned in the books of baseball but certainly banned in the book of Congress. Personally that argument is worthless considering US law superceeds everything else in the land--

I sincerley doubt US law would ever be applied agains the HoF, and that is what this is about.
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Postby gtabaplayr » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:58 pm

But isn't character a criteria for the HoF? Then violating US law doesn't show much character IMO.
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Postby agchris02 » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:59 pm

This was discussed on Mike and Mike all morning long, not ONE of the people who did this survey dont think BIg Mac wouldnt be an instant first ballot HOF if it wasnt for the steriods

This debate IS NOT OVER WHETHER OR NOT Mac is worthy of HOF status, he's a first ballot hands down, and not one of the people interviewed/surveyed disputed that

Why the voted him down was over the steriods issue

Which is why this is so nuts, here is the summary:

A) Big Mac is a first ballot HOF supsected of taking steriods
B) Barry is a first ballot HOF supsected of taking steriods

C) Big Mac doesnt get in and Barry does

Which makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER, Im not sure why they voted like this, it could be theyre racist, could be just a knee jerk reaction to the fact that Mac "came out" if you want to call it that a week ago and we've had months to adjust to Barry, it could be any number of reasons, but its not fair and it doesnt make sense

You either have to put both or neither in

Personally Im for putting both in. (Though I hate Barry Bonds, and I WANT (dont, but want to) beleive the following:

Big Mac did not take steriods, he was told to answer like he did by his lawyer BECAUSE andro HAS been classified as a steriod in two states and is potentially going to be done so by others. He has admitted to taking andro, if he then says he never took steriods, and andro is classified as a steriod, that would be perjury and he would go to jail. I realize this is a weak explination, but I used to like him and hope its true)
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Postby JTWood » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:40 pm

gtabaplayr wrote:But isn't character a criteria for the HoF? Then violating US law doesn't show much character IMO.

Not in my opinion. Babe Ruth was an a**hole womanizer alcoholic. He's still the greatest ever and deserves to be there. Remember, the HoF just says that these guys are the greatest baseball players ever. It never proclaims to be the uber-Nobel Peace Prize.
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Postby Honus » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:22 pm

JTWood wrote:
gtabaplayr wrote:But isn't character a criteria for the HoF? Then violating US law doesn't show much character IMO.

Not in my opinion. Babe Ruth was an a**hole womanizer alcoholic. He's still the greatest ever and deserves to be there. Remember, the HoF just says that these guys are the greatest baseball players ever. It never proclaims to be the uber-Nobel Peace Prize.


It doesn't proclaim to be the uber-Nobel Peace Prize but it does have these criteria:

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

And, being an a**hole doesn't help you build muscle mass, increase your bat speed or extend your career. Being a womanizer doesn't help you build muscle mass, increase your bat speed or extend your career. Being an alcoholic doesn't help you build muscle mass, increase your bat speed or extend your career. Taking steroids and Human Growth Hormone can do those things, which makes them vastly different. Quit ignoring the elephant in the room and apologizing for today's cheaters by saying people in the past weren't perfect. Today brings the opportunity to shape the future and we are not forced to repeat mistakes of the past.
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