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Barry, Big Mac, and the Hall

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Postby Jedimindtric » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:49 pm

The * was removed from that record. It is a single season record not a 154 game record!
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Postby Mustangs989 » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:52 pm

Jedimindtric wrote:What I don't understand is why there is so much more disapproval for Mac then Bonds. At least Mac wasn't an outright jerk. It has been said by one of the writers that Mac didn't achieve his status without steroids but what about Bonds? He was a very good line drive hitter with speed turned monster 70 hrs a year. What do you call that? In addition, this whole mess pretty much started with Bonds and Balco so why the heck wasn't Bonds asked to testify in front of Congress? Maybe immunity? Maybe a conspiracy by baseball because Bonds is still a draw? What is it? They will probably both make the hall but after all this but I don't really believe they deserve it. Yes the hall is filled with racists, gamblers, addicts and so on but this is blantant cheating in our face. Now I still like Big Mac, and I have never liked Bonds, but with this aside, I think Bonds should crawl away, leave Hank's record alone, and give us remaining baseball fans something real to hold on to. Also. in my mind, there is no *, Roger Maris holds the single season HR record.

Bonds was a HOF even before there was even suspicion of him taking steroids. Just look at his numbers before 2000 and you'll see that he was a HOF player even before Balco.

Also the reason Bonds wasn't even asked to testify is because of the Balco case. They knew that he would get out of it just like Giambi did because they are involved with the Balco case.
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Postby Jedimindtric » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:55 pm

I agree that Bonds was a Hall of Famer before "when we think" he started the juice. I just don't feel he is a Hall of Famer because of after the steroids. Just my opinion.
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:55 pm

If McGwire is in the HoF, then Dave Kingman deserves to be there. This is a man who has a career average of .263. He hit .201 over a full season in the prime of his career. He is a one dimensional player, and that one dimension was enhanced a great deal by taking illegal substances. Whether they were against the rules of baseball, they were against the fricking law for him to be taking. His numbers do not merit being selected, and his cheating makes him even less deserving.

Bonds had the numbers prior to even starting juicing. That to me is the key difference. I probably would not vote for him simply because I think he violated the integrity of the game, but his stats before all of that merit inclusion.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:59 pm

SouthBronxBombers wrote:If McGwire is in the HoF, then Dave Kingman deserves to be there. This is a man who has a career average of .263. He hit .201 over a full season in the prime of his career. He is a one dimensional player, and that one dimension was enhanced a great deal by taking illegal substances. Whether they were against the rules of baseball, they were against the fricking law for him to be taking. His numbers do not merit being selected, and his cheating makes him even less deserving.

Bonds had the numbers prior to even starting juicing. That to me is the key difference. I probably would not vote for him simply because I think he violated the integrity of the game, but his stats before all of that merit inclusion.

McGwire hit 49 in his rookie season when he was skinnier.
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Postby cmchampa2 » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:59 pm

Rice is certainly borderline and not getting 500 killed him, but he was such a ridiculous hitter, a Manny Ramirez or Sheffield type. Just scary. The extra few years gives Big Mac an edge and allowed him to put up insane career numbers. I hate to say it though, but would he have faded as quickly as Rice if he wasn't chemically aided?

Like I said, Mac was a one-dimensional player. Without steroids (if he took them) his career would certainly have been unremarkable. The same couldn't be said about Bonds. No one knows what Barry would have done without steroids, but it still would have been great.
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Postby OwenTheBlonde » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:04 pm

Can't factor it in because supposedly more players than not used steroids over the same period of time as McGwire so doesn't that cancel out the benefit mostly? Plus McGwire was a toothpick when he hit 49 HRs as a rook and had Lasik surgery for better vision later in his career. He better get in. Doesn't have to be first ballot but he should. And there is no argument against Bonds not being in. You may hate him but he's the best player of this generation period. 500/500 club's one and only member (nobody even in 400/400). Slam dunk.
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Postby cmchampa2 » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:15 pm

I disagree that just because McGwire was the premier power guy of his time he should be in, even if he used steroids. That doesn't put him in the same category as Ruth, Williams, Aaron. It's like saying that Podsednik is this generation's Lou Brock. In the steroids era, a lot of players put up gaudy power numbers.

McGwire, in my opinion, is a borderline HOFer.

And he hit 49 as a rookie when he was a toothpick, eh? The next year he hit .260. The next 2 years, about .230. The year after that, just over .200. He didn't hit 40 homers in any of those years. We'll call them the toothpick years.
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:17 pm

And McGwire hitting 49 as a rookie somehow makes up for the .201 he hit a few years later? A career average of .263. That hardly qualifies him as being one of the best of the best. He hit a lot of homeruns, Kingman did also, and none of his were helped by chemicals. He hit over .300 once, coincidently enough during one of those chemically induced seasons. He did not sniff it during any season not chemically assisted. If the sole criteria is x number of home runs and nothing else, by all means, put him in. If it is actually being a great player, he doesn't come close to belonging.
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Postby cmchampa2 » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:25 pm

There seems to be a general feeling of "if a player probably took steroids, reduce his career stats by 10% and re-evaluate." I say, these players have made it impossible to accurately measure how talented they actually were or would have have been. Mac's a great example, as is Sosa of late. If these guys were hitting .250 with about 25-30 HR a year, they might not even be starting, let alone chasing records.
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