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Postby The Miner Part 2 » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:35 pm

Lofunzo wrote: I would be interested in seeing your numbers for the amount of people over 40 taking steroids to those that consume alcohol.


ha, id love to see some 70 year old steriod-aholics. :*)
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:37 pm

Phatferd wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I can say one is worse than another because the facts support that statement. Deaths attributable to steroid use and abuse are under 100. Deaths attributable to alcohol number in the thousands every year.


There is a major flaw in this argument. How many people do steroids compared to alcohol? If you wanted to say the percentage of people who drink alcohol who die from alcohol related death's and the percent who take steroids who die from steroid related death's then you would have steroids out number alcohol deaths.

The other thing is alchohol has more of a direct effect on a person, steroids take years to kill someone, so its not fair to say alcohol causes more death's because I would bet thousands of steroid users are headed for death, but its a thing that takes time to kill a person.


Certainly there is something to that argument, since steroids are now illegal without a prescription, while alcohol is not. However, for kids under age 20 both alcohol and steroids are illegal, and clearly alcohol is far more damaging among adolescents. Furthermore, alcohol also has severe long-term consequences. You do know about things like alcoholic dementia and cirrhosis of the liver, right? And, no, even on a percentage basis, alcohol is responsible for more deaths than steroids.

But, to be honest, part of the reason why alcohol is more dangerous is because it is more readily available and comes in a convenient drug delivery mechanism. Most of us could very easily make our own alcoholic beverages, even it was illegal. Most of us could not do so with steroids.

Yes, alcohol has more users and abusers. But, I argue that only part of that is due to legal restrictions. Even absent that issue, alcohol would continue to be more readily available, because it is easier for the average person to make, and is also easier to abuse, because of the drug delivery mechanism. So, you cannot seperate the availability and efficient delivery of alcohol from the issue. That's part of the very important difference between the two drugs.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:39 pm

Lofunzo wrote:Your numbers are as irrelevant as you claim the others to be. Of course there are more deaths related to alcohol. More people drink than take steroids and people tend to drink for longer periods in their lives than they take steroids for. I would be interested in seeing your numbers for the amount of people over 40 taking steroids to those that consume alcohol.


See my comments above. Those are inherent properties of alcohol, which is one reason why it is more dangerous than steroids.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:47 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:Your numbers are as irrelevant as you claim the others to be. Of course there are more deaths related to alcohol. More people drink than take steroids and people tend to drink for longer periods in their lives than they take steroids for. I would be interested in seeing your numbers for the amount of people over 40 taking steroids to those that consume alcohol.


See my comments above. Those are inherent properties of alcohol, which is one reason why it is more dangerous than steroids.


I saw it and although there are some valid points there, you are missing the point. You are just looking at the deaths. I know all about liver disease, etc. Just because someone might not die from steroid use doesn't mean that it isn't bad. I can still live fine after that but I might not be able to start a family. I would like to see the results of a study showing someone that took steroids for the length of time that it would take a drinker to get liver disease. That's why I think that steroid use is worse. Not only is it illegal but people can drink heavily for 20 years, stop, and be relatively fine. The same can't be said for 20 years of heavy steroid use.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:08 pm

Phatferd wrote:There is a major flaw in this argument. How many people do steroids compared to alcohol? If you wanted to say the percentage of people who drink alcohol who die from alcohol related death's and the percent who take steroids who die from steroid related death's then you would have steroids out number alcohol deaths.


GotowarMissAgnes wrote:Certainly there is something to that argument, since steroids are now illegal without a prescription, while alcohol is not. However, for kids under age 20 both alcohol and steroids are illegal, and clearly alcohol is far more damaging among adolescents. Furthermore, alcohol also has severe long-term consequences. You do know about things like alcoholic dementia and cirrhosis of the liver, right? And, no, even on a percentage basis, alcohol is responsible for more deaths than steroids.


You seem to ignore the point, no debate that alcohol related deaths outnumber steroid related deaths. I bet alcohol users to steroid users (without doctor supervision) are at a ratio close to 25:1.

If you look at the percentage of steroid users (without doctors supervision) who end up with life threatening health problems they would by far outweigh people who use alcohol who have life threatening problems.

I know hundreds of people who use alcohol and I would say 15 percent of them abuse it and have suffered ill effects (other than a hangover).

For every person who abuses alcohol I bet there are 5-10 people who use alcohol who don't abuse it and suffer health problems.

I would bet for every person who uses steroids without doctor supervision ther are only a couple who use it who don't suffer major problems.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:27 pm

Well I will have to sign off for tonight, my friends. Ironically, I am going to my friends 21st birthday party.

:-?

Seems fitting ;-D
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:31 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
I saw it and although there are some valid points there, you are missing the point. You are just looking at the deaths. I know all about liver disease, etc. Just because someone might not die from steroid use doesn't mean that it isn't bad. I can still live fine after that but I might not be able to start a family. I would like to see the results of a study showing someone that took steroids for the length of time that it would take a drinker to get liver disease. That's why I think that steroid use is worse. Not only is it illegal but people can drink heavily for 20 years, stop, and be relatively fine. The same can't be said for 20 years of heavy steroid use.


Well, yes, I have been speaking mostly about deaths, but alcoholic morbidity is also, far, far larger than morbidity from steroid abuse. Alcohol abuse, for example, also causes impotence. People cannot truly abuse alcohol for 20 years and walk away fine. Someone who did so would have done serious damage to the brain, liver, and heart, among other organs, and wil suffer significant impaired functional abilities until the time they die, at an earlier age than many.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:24 pm

Phatferd wrote:You seem to ignore the point, no debate that alcohol related deaths outnumber steroid related deaths. I bet alcohol users to steroid users (without doctor supervision) are at a ratio close to 25:1.

If you look at the percentage of steroid users (without doctors supervision) who end up with life threatening health problems they would by far outweigh people who use alcohol who have life threatening problems.

I know hundreds of people who use alcohol and I would say 15 percent of them abuse it and have suffered ill effects (other than a hangover).

For every person who abuses alcohol I bet there are 5-10 people who use alcohol who don't abuse it and suffer health problems.

I would bet for every person who uses steroids without doctor supervision ther are only a couple who use it who don't suffer major problems.


You're simply wrong. We know the prevalence of use for each drug and we know the number of people killed and injured by each drug.

If you take a population of 100 people, the lifetime prevalence of steroid use is about 5%, while the lifetime prevalence of alcohol use is about 66%. Lifetime alcohol abuse prevalence estimates are about 15%. There are more alcohol ABUSERS than there are steroid USERS.

Alcohol use is the third leading cause of preventable death in the US (after smoking and obesity). Annually, 100,000 deaths are attributable to alcohol at a cost of $166 billion.

Now, ignoring the most important point---that the very nature of alcohol means that far more people will use it, abuse it, and be injured or die from it--you want to say, steroids are more dangerous because almost all of the people who use it end up being injured by it. Two important points:

1. 100% of a smaller number is still smaller.

2. And most of the people who use/abuse steroids suffer no long-term consequences. They use them for a few years in high school and college and then that's it. Most of the negative effects of steroid use reverse themselves after you stop.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:33 pm

Agnes.......Your math is so flawed it's not even funny. No one here is arguing that there are more people or more deaths because of alcohol than steroids. Simple math will tell you that because more people drink than take steroids. It's the same thing as saying that more white people commit crimes in the US than any other race. That is a logical fact because there are lots more white people in this country. The same thing about those that claim that there are more idiot Yankee fans than for any other team. This makes perfect sense because there are a ton more Yankee fans than for any other team. Back to the issue at hand. This will go nowhere unless we can see the % of people that have problems from steroid use compared to the total # of people that have used steroids. Also, we would need to compare the % of people that had alcohol related health issues compared to the # of people that drink. Otherwise, this is a moot point.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:28 am

Lofunzo wrote:Agnes.......Your math is so flawed it's not even funny. No one here is arguing that there are more people or more deaths because of alcohol than steroids. Simple math will tell you that because more people drink than take steroids. It's the same thing as saying that more white people commit crimes in the US than any other race. That is a logical fact because there are lots more white people in this country. The same thing about those that claim that there are more idiot Yankee fans than for any other team. This makes perfect sense because there are a ton more Yankee fans than for any other team. Back to the issue at hand. This will go nowhere unless we can see the % of people that have problems from steroid use compared to the total # of people that have used steroids. Also, we would need to compare the % of people that had alcohol related health issues compared to the # of people that drink. Otherwise, this is a moot point.


No, it's not, but I'll let you have the last word after this, if you want. The problem is that you and phatferd want to describe "dangerous" simply what people in my area of research would call the "complication rate". That is, you want to focus, in this case, on the "number of abusers divided by the number of users" as the measure of danger.

But, that ignores that the simple prevalence of the disease or disorder is an important part of the danger, too.

Which is more dangerous, a disease that impacts 20 million people and kills 10% of them or a disease that impacts 10 people with 50% mortality? Which one do you want to prevent? While both are important and dangerous, the sole measure of danger is not simply the one you want to use. That would cause public health officials to ignore a disease that kills 2 million people simply because it has a lower mortality rate.

And this ignores the fact that the "complication rate" for steroids is not shown to be higher than then 1/5 to 1/4 of alcohol users who become alcohol abusers. And, it ignores the fact that many alcohol users, because of the effects of alcohol, injure themselves and others.

There's simply no comparison between alcohol and steroids in terms of "dangerous".
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