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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:08 pm

what?

I'm not dodging anything, you are asking loaded questions and when I ask you a good question you resort to using an informal fallacy known as Ignoring a Common Cause.

You gave option A and option B, however, you didn't look for a third common cause.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:10 pm

Speaking of dodging, why didn't you respond to Lofunzo's question right above your post?

:-?
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:20 pm

Lofunzo wrote:There is a big difference between trying something or abusing it.

Agnes.......Let me ask you this. What is more damaging?? Having 1 serving of alcohol per day for 10 years or 1 serving of steroids per day over the same time period??


If by "serving" you mean a relatively modest amount, neither is damaging. In fact, a single serving of each is likely to be health enhancing. Alcohol in those low doses has beneficial effects. So do steroids if they are used appropriately like alcohol.

However, your scenario is not related to the point. I hardly think most adolescents experiment by planning to take one beer a day for ten years.

Again, the question I raised was that if you are concerned solely about experimentation and health risks, there's clearly no question about the dangers.

The situation arises exactly as I said: Your teenager goes out with friends and you have your choice: Free Beer or Free Steroids. After which one is he more likely to cause himself harm?
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:25 pm

If my son/daughter had 4 beers then had a sober person drive them home, or took steroids for a "cycle" during a baseball season, I think the the steroids would cause more harm. Most HS kids don't drink on a nightly basis and most don't binge drink (more so in college than HS) kids just dont have the money to binge drink.

If my child has a total of 10 beers in a month and is responsible in the fact that they don't ever drive a car while intoxicated, I would rather them do that then take steroids. I wouldn't want either, but if I had my choice I would take the drinking.

Both are harmful when abused, I don't know how you can say onei s worse than the other? The sad thing about steroids is you don't really know how it will effect you. Will it cause organ damage? Will it cause rage? Will your body shut down? Will you just have a limp for the rest of your life?
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:34 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:There is a big difference between trying something or abusing it.

Agnes.......Let me ask you this. What is more damaging?? Having 1 serving of alcohol per day for 10 years or 1 serving of steroids per day over the same time period??


If by "serving" you mean a relatively modest amount, neither is damaging. In fact, a single serving of each is likely to be health enhancing. Alcohol in those low doses has beneficial effects. So do steroids if they are used appropriately like alcohol.

However, your scenario is not related to the point. I hardly think most adolescents experiment by planning to take one beer a day for ten years.

Again, the question I raised was that if you are concerned solely about experimentation and health risks, there's clearly no question about the dangers.

The situation arises exactly as I said: Your teenager goes out with friends and you have your choice: Free Beer or Free Steroids. After which one is he more likely to cause himself harm?


I was about to say the same thing GTWMA.

Steroids are almost as much an everyday substance as alcohol. Topical creams such as hydrocortizone are steroid based (I may be wrong here) and my daughter uses it everyday for some small patches of eczma. My neice also uses a steroid puffer.

The difference is between use and abuse. Alcohol and steroids both have positive everyday uses but both can be abused. When abused they are both very harmful.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:16 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:There is a big difference between trying something or abusing it.

Agnes.......Let me ask you this. What is more damaging?? Having 1 serving of alcohol per day for 10 years or 1 serving of steroids per day over the same time period??


If by "serving" you mean a relatively modest amount, neither is damaging. In fact, a single serving of each is likely to be health enhancing. Alcohol in those low doses has beneficial effects. So do steroids if they are used appropriately like alcohol.

However, your scenario is not related to the point. I hardly think most adolescents experiment by planning to take one beer a day for ten years.

Again, the question I raised was that if you are concerned solely about experimentation and health risks, there's clearly no question about the dangers.

The situation arises exactly as I said: Your teenager goes out with friends and you have your choice: Free Beer or Free Steroids. After which one is he more likely to cause himself harm?


O.K. but please bear with me as I don't know the terminology with steroids. Let's say that we are looking long-term here. Let's assume that we have 2 different 20 year olds. 1 abuses steroids for a 5 year period. The other abuses alcohol for 5 years. Assuming that they quit cold turkey after the 5 year periods, who do you think will have more long-term negative affects?? I'll go with the steroid abuser.

This is in no way taking into account driving, etc. under the influence.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:30 pm

Phatferd wrote:If my son/daughter had 4 beers then had a sober person drive them home, or took steroids for a "cycle" during a baseball season, I think the the steroids would cause more harm. Most HS kids don't drink on a nightly basis and most don't binge drink (more so in college than HS) kids just dont have the money to binge drink.

If my child has a total of 10 beers in a month and is responsible in the fact that they don't ever drive a car while intoxicated, I would rather them do that then take steroids. I wouldn't want either, but if I had my choice I would take the drinking.

Both are harmful when abused, I don't know how you can say onei s worse than the other? The sad thing about steroids is you don't really know how it will effect you. Will it cause organ damage? Will it cause rage? Will your body shut down? Will you just have a limp for the rest of your life?



Again, you don't get to set the parameters of your child's choice. You only get to pick which drug they have the opportunity to experiment with. To cite your example, I might say "If my son took one cycle of steroids under the supervision of our family physician." But neither guaranteeing how many beers your kid drinks nor that he'll have a designated driver at hand nor that a physician will supervise steroid use is a believable scenario.

I can say one is worse than another because the facts support that statement. Deaths attributable to steroid use and abuse are under 100. Deaths attributable to alcohol number in the thousands every year.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:43 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
O.K. but please bear with me as I don't know the terminology with steroids. Let's say that we are looking long-term here. Let's assume that we have 2 different 20 year olds. 1 abuses steroids for a 5 year period. The other abuses alcohol for 5 years. Assuming that they quit cold turkey after the 5 year periods, who do you think will have more long-term negative affects?? I'll go with the steroid abuser.

This is in no way taking into account driving, etc. under the influence.


Wait a second. This means you get to ignore one of the major effects of alcohol, impaired decision making and judgement. So, do I get to ignore the major danger from steroids, liver toxicity?

Taking into account all the possible consequences of abusing the two drugs, I'd choose steroids, particularly if we are talking injecting steroids. The most serious dangers with taking steroids come from taking them orally, where they damage the liver. Most of the things that we THINK might be a result of long-term steroid use are things we KNOW are consequences of long-term alcohol abuse. Steroids damage the liver; alcohol does, too. Steroids change brain chemistry and may cause damage; alcohol has severe effects on the brain. We could go through the rest of the list, but alcohol abuse is very, very damaging.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:10 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I can say one is worse than another because the facts support that statement. Deaths attributable to steroid use and abuse are under 100. Deaths attributable to alcohol number in the thousands every year.


There is a major flaw in this argument. How many people do steroids compared to alcohol? If you wanted to say the percentage of people who drink alcohol who die from alcohol related death's and the percent who take steroids who die from steroid related death's then you would have steroids out number alcohol deaths.

The other thing is alchohol has more of a direct effect on a person, steroids take years to kill someone, so its not fair to say alcohol causes more death's because I would bet thousands of steroid users are headed for death, but its a thing that takes time to kill a person.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:22 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Phatferd wrote:If my son/daughter had 4 beers then had a sober person drive them home, or took steroids for a "cycle" during a baseball season, I think the the steroids would cause more harm. Most HS kids don't drink on a nightly basis and most don't binge drink (more so in college than HS) kids just dont have the money to binge drink.

If my child has a total of 10 beers in a month and is responsible in the fact that they don't ever drive a car while intoxicated, I would rather them do that then take steroids. I wouldn't want either, but if I had my choice I would take the drinking.

Both are harmful when abused, I don't know how you can say onei s worse than the other? The sad thing about steroids is you don't really know how it will effect you. Will it cause organ damage? Will it cause rage? Will your body shut down? Will you just have a limp for the rest of your life?



Again, you don't get to set the parameters of your child's choice. You only get to pick which drug they have the opportunity to experiment with. To cite your example, I might say "If my son took one cycle of steroids under the supervision of our family physician." But neither guaranteeing how many beers your kid drinks nor that he'll have a designated driver at hand nor that a physician will supervise steroid use is a believable scenario.

I can say one is worse than another because the facts support that statement. Deaths attributable to steroid use and abuse are under 100. Deaths attributable to alcohol number in the thousands every year.


Your numbers are as irrelevant as you claim the others to be. Of course there are more deaths related to alcohol. More people drink than take steroids and people tend to drink for longer periods in their lives than they take steroids for. I would be interested in seeing your numbers for the amount of people over 40 taking steroids to those that consume alcohol.
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