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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:38 pm

eftda wrote:Trans and GotowarMissAgnes, if you are saying I'm crazy or denial
then you've lost it. Seriously, I said 20-25% combined. I said it before and you burshed it off, i said it gain and you brush it off. If you don't belive me then go visit a Division 1 Game and see how big they are. Riods are being sold in drug stroes across the US. They are not labeled roids, but they are still roids. My friend was just taking a substance that was just taken off the market. I guess I over reacted when i said "who cares what Bonds does", but still, If someone belives that there are only a hand full of players who are on roids, then they are truly out of it. Sorry...

Trans, what did you mean by denial? I need to know.


You can say whatever you want. And if you had said that "20-25% of male college athletes" are using steroids, I would have said, "That's about right".

But, that's not what you wrote. You wrote that 25-50% of high school and college students are using steroids.

And that's total BS.

No study in the world shows such a high level of use among the general high school and college population. I work at a major university. I go to college games all the time; and one of the guys who sits in the office next to mine testified before Congress on Wednesday on this issue. And there's no evidence in the world for the high level of use among the general high school and college age population.

25 percent of MALE COLLEGE ATHLETES might be using steroids. I would certainly agree that the level of use is even higher among MALE COLLEGE ATHLETES in the revenue sports.

But, there's NO good evidence that 25-50 percent of all high school and college students are using steroids.
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Postby eftda » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:52 pm

I'm sorry if I forgot to snag in "MALE" in my topic. I asumed that no one would nip at it and take every word I said as the cafe bible. I'm guessing that you didn't pay attention to when they guy (I honestly forgot his same [stupid tivo]) said 1 in 23 in his kids high school are juice'n for football. I belive that its much much more. Maybe i dont have as much proof as Bonds mistress has, but I do know that every high school athlete i've met whos been on a D1 program (that brings in the cash) are as big as some of the players oiin the bigs (MLB).

GotowarMissAgnes, I commend you for finding a flaw in my post, but please dont over stress your opnion. You could have said
"Maybe you ment 25% of male college athletes." I'm not
b*tchn or crying, I'm just saying.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:13 am

eftda wrote:I'm sorry if I forgot to snag in "MALE" in my topic. I asumed that no one would nip at it and take every word I said as the cafe bible. I'm guessing that you didn't pay attention to when they guy (I honestly forgot his same [stupid tivo]) said 1 in 23 in his kids high school are juice'n for football. I belive that its much much more. Maybe i dont have as much proof as Bonds mistress has, but I do know that every high school athlete i've met whos been on a D1 program (that brings in the cash) are as big as some of the players oiin the bigs (MLB).

GotowarMissAgnes, I commend you for finding a flaw in my post, but please dont over stress your opnion. You could have said
"Maybe you ment 25% of male college athletes." I'm not
b*tchn or crying, I'm just saying.


eftda, it's not just the "male" that you forgot. It's "MALE COLLEGE ATHLETES". It's a very select population, even on a D1 campus. There are 40,000+ students at my university. There are less than 400 male college athletes. They represent less than 1 percent of all college students.

Your post implied that if you just picked 100 random college or high school students off the street, 1/4 to 1/2 of them would be steroid users, which makes it seem like this is a huge problem.

Instead, the truth is that if you picked 100 random high school or college students off the street, probably about 3-5 of them would be steroid users. That's a much smaller problem.

Notice that "1 in 23" means just over 4% of students in his high school.

Meanwhile, while just 3-5 of these students have used steroids, more than 20 have used inhalents, more than 33 have used marijuana, and more than 80 have used alcohol. In short about 5-6 times as many kids regularly abuse alcohol as use steroids. Which is the real problem?

I've had plenty of D1 athletes in my classroom during the 15+ years I've taught, and your comment is unfair to the majority of them who do not use (and every study does show that it is a majority, even a majority of male college athletes, who do NOT use).

Sorry if you don't like me coming down hard on you, but you called attention to yourself by crowing about how right you were. In fact, you are very, very, very wrong and your posts both tars a lot of good kids, and misleads people about the size and importance of this problem.

Maybe next time you'll rely on facts to make your argument, rather than making up numbers out of thin air.
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Postby cmchampa2 » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:25 am

What's most disturbing to me is that while people argue back and forth about what percentages of kids or athletes are taking steroids, the point should be that there should be rules in place to prevent steroid use regardless of what the percentages are. I mean, even if only one MLB player has ever used steroids (say, Termel Sledge by mistake) and no kids have ever used them, there should STILL be a rule in place. Am I crazy or are the stat-heads taking over everything? Who cares how many players are on roids, just make them illegal.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:47 am

cmchampa2 wrote:What's most disturbing to me is that while people argue back and forth about what percentages of kids or athletes are taking steroids, the point should be that there should be rules in place to prevent steroid use regardless of what the percentages are. I mean, even if only one MLB player has ever used steroids (say, Termel Sledge by mistake) and no kids have ever used them, there should STILL be a rule in place. Am I crazy or are the stat-heads taking over everything? Who cares how many players are on roids, just make them illegal.


Actually, in my opinion, I think you have the importance of the issues completely reversed.

I only care a little bit if adults make the decision to use drugs to enhance their performance. I agree there should be rules and they should be enforced, but I'm not going to lose one minute of sleep fretting over whether Barry's homers are "tainted".

I am much more worried about a 12 year old kid being influenced by these people he perceives as heroes, not understanding the risks of these substances, and using them as a result. That's a REAL problem.

FWIW, using these substances without a physician's prescription IS illegal. That's why we have a BALCO case.

The question isn't the legality, it's how an employer and a union negotiate establishing rules to prevent their use.
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Postby cmchampa2 » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:27 am

There are more REAL problems if it's the kids you're worried about. Kids aren't doing steroids 'cause the pros do, kids are cheating because the pros do, steroids are just the means.

I'm a baseball fan, and I don't think the rules of the game should be written to send a message to our youth. There are far too many people that think that morally empty but drug-free kids are fine. The problem with steroids is not that they hurt users, it's that blatent cheating is fine if one can get away with it... it's that records and history are to be destroyed by any means necessary... it's that grown men can lie and hide behind a secret society of liars and fans will support them anyway.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:50 am

Whoever thinks that steroids aren't a big issue in High School are sorely mistaken. I was recently in High School (within the past 5 years) and had a friend from a local High School who had a coach offer to get him in contact with someone who could provide steroids for him.

The coach (was also a teacher) told him he had the talent to make it at the next level and that he would need every advantage he could use to make it through the minors and offered to get him steroids. This is High School!

It is going on. Even in college while in line buying books one day some football players were behind me in line and they were all talking about making a run to Mexico to get some steroids and were discussing who would make the run and who wanted them. At least 3 guys were willing to do them. I am sure they aren't the only ones on the team doing them. They aren't trying to hide anything, they were discussing this in the open for anyone around them to hear.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:17 pm

cmchampa2 wrote:There are more REAL problems if it's the kids you're worried about. Kids aren't doing steroids 'cause the pros do, kids are cheating because the pros do, steroids are just the means.

I'm a baseball fan, and I don't think the rules of the game should be written to send a message to our youth. There are far too many people that think that morally empty but drug-free kids are fine. The problem with steroids is not that they hurt users, it's that blatent cheating is fine if one can get away with it... it's that records and history are to be destroyed by any means necessary... it's that grown men can lie and hide behind a secret society of liars and fans will support them anyway.


Isn't it possible that the problem with steroids is both that they represent cheating and that they have important health risks if used improperly? As I said, I support the rules against steroids and their enforcement. I don't support any ballplayer who uses steroids.

But, to me, the more important issue is the health issue, not cheating.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:26 pm

Phatferd wrote:Whoever thinks that steroids aren't a big issue in High School are sorely mistaken. I was recently in High School (within the past 5 years) and had a friend from a local High School who had a coach offer to get him in contact with someone who could provide steroids for him.

The coach (was also a teacher) told him he had the talent to make it at the next level and that he would need every advantage he could use to make it through the minors and offered to get him steroids. This is High School!

It is going on. Even in college while in line buying books one day some football players were behind me in line and they were all talking about making a run to Mexico to get some steroids and were discussing who would make the run and who wanted them. At least 3 guys were willing to do them. I am sure they aren't the only ones on the team doing them. They aren't trying to hide anything, they were discussing this in the open for anyone around them to hear.


No one denies it's going on or that it is a problem. But, it is a problem largely confined, as even your examples show, among a select portion of the population, largely talented male athletes in high school and college. As I said, that represents a small proportion of the overall high school and college population. The good studies show that only about 3-5 percent of all adolescents EVER used steroids.

Meanwhile 20-30 percent of college and high school students regularly abuse alcohol. Each year there are close to 100 deaths directly from alcohol overdose and about 1,500 other deaths in which alcohol played a significant role.

That's a BIG issue. Ask any high school or college administrator. Steroids are a small problem by comparison.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:50 pm

I don't disagree with you on that. If you want to be specific then we need to look at this WHOLE thing as a DRUG issue in general. I am including alcohol in with drugs.

Even if 2% of kids are doing steroids on a HS campus it's 2% too many. Alcohol is something we will never get kids to not do, and I don't really have a major issue with it. I do think a lot of kids abuse it, but I am of the mindset that you have to let kids try things and learn about it rather than just telling them its a bad thing.

With that said, there are certain things you cannot let kids experiment with, steroids and other drugs are some. If you take your numbers Agnes and include all drug abuse I bet it get's close to 50% and that is the scary issue.
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